CENSUS (IRELAND) BILL.—COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 24 July 1860)

§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH
said, he would express his satisfaction that the 79 clause relating to religious professions had been struck out of the English Census Bill. He wished to ask whether such a clause had been retained in the Irish Bill, in accordance with the wishes of noble Lords connected with that country? He also observed that there was a provision not in the Irish Bill, which it would be desirable to introduce into it, and another which it was in his opinion expedient should be omitted from it. The Census would give the numerical return of the population it found in that kingdom, but it would not give any return of the persons who had emigrated in the interval since the last Census. In former times emigration from Ireland was strongly advocated, and a great diminution of the population necessarily ensued. Latterly a very large increase had apparently taken place; but the extent of this increase had hitherto been only estimated by setting the number of deaths on one side and the number of births at the other, no account being taken either of emigration or immigration. Emigration they knew had largely gone forward, and he feared that when the details were ascertained it would be found that the country had lost a great portion of its military strength. Those who emigrated were principally the strong and hale, who would to a great extent have become soldiers if they had remained in the country; while those who stayed behind were largely made up of the old and very young. If it should be found that in proportion to the total number the most valuable portion of the inhabitants had left the country, it would be time, he thought, for the Government and Parliament to determine whether it was any longer advisable to take measures for the encouragement of emigration. He would suggest that the Government should introduce into the Irish Bill a clause similar to that contained in the Bill for England, defining the allowances of those who were to carry the provisions of the Act into operation. He likewise begged to move the omission from Clause 3 of the words, "and to take account of all such further particulars as by such instructions they may be directed to inquire into," which he thought placed an undefined power in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant.

§ LORD MONTEAGLE
fully admitted that there was no longer any necessity for the encouragement of emigration from Ireland on the part of Her Majesty's Government, as that emigration had been attend- 80 ed with nearly all the benefits that were expected to follow from it. He would certainly impose no restraint upon that emigration; nil he thought the Government were now bound to do in the matter was to see that the emigrant vessels were perfectly seaworthy, well-found, and that the emigrants were adequately provided for, and exposed during their voyage to no improper treatment. He thought the noble Earl was mistaken with respect to the class of persons of whom the Irish emigrants now consisted. It was true that at the commencement of the movement those emigrants consisted principally of the young and active; but many of them after their success abroad had shown the most affectionate solicitude for the welfare of the relatives they had left behind them, and had, in many cases, taken care to supply the necessary funds for bringing over to join them both their young children and their old parents; so that the emigration now in reality included people of every age and of every variety of physical power. The latest returns would show that there was no longer any reason to apprehend a loss of military strength. With regard to the clause in the Bill which sanctioned an inquiry into religious professions, he strongly approved of that power being given, and he believed that such inquiries when made in 1835 had met with no opposition of any kind in Ireland. He very much regretted that it had been found necessary to omit the similar provision from the English Bill. He thought it was a concession to clamour and false alarm. It was impossible to suppose that to require a statement of the religious faith of persons returned by themselves could be regarded as an interference with religious freedom; there must consequently be some other motive for the objection. Could it be that persons objecting to afford information on such a point were actuated by an apprehension of some loss of their own importance if the truth were accurately made known. A party unwilling to have the exact truth stated thereby manifested a belief that the notions entertained as to its numbers and influence were at present exaggerated. In Ireland no objection was made to such inquiries. Under Lord Melbourne's Administration a special census was taken which was pointed solely at the relative numbers of the various Christian denominations, and yet the returns were obtained without the slightest difficulty. The ministers of all sects concurred in making the Returns most complete, and 81 there never yet was a more expeditious, more accurate, or cheaper statistical return made. No objection had been raised to this provision in its passage through the other House, and he hoped their Lordships would adhere to the Bill as it now stood. The Irish Census was, however, incomplete in one respect, inasmuch as it was a mere enumeration of numbers, unchecked by those calculations derived from the returns of births, marriages, and deaths which were so indispensable in England. He was glad to hear that a Bill had been introduced in the other House for establishing a system of registering births, deaths, and marriages in Ireland, which had only been withdrawn on account of the lateness of the Session. He trusted it would ultimately become the law of the land.

§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH
said, he did not propose to press any Motion; he had only pointed out the difference between the two Bills. No doubt this provision would give a great trouble to the enumerators, for he remembered hearing that in a small town in the North of Ireland, near which he had resided many years ago, there were no less than sixteen different sects.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
said, he certainly regretted that it had been necessary to remove from the English Bill the provision which was originally inserted for obtaining Returns of the religious professions of the people. But when the Government found that, rightly or wrongly, that provision was offensive to a great portion of the inhabitants of the country, it would have been very improper upon their part to insist on its retention. He hoped the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Ellenborough) would not press his Amendment for the omission of certain words in the Irish Bill, which had only been introduced for the purpose of ensuring greater completeness in the Returns.

§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH
said, the point that he objected to was the general power given to inquire into any subject besides those actually specified in the Bill which the curiosity of the Lord Lieutenant, or of somebody about the Lord Lieutenant, or of somebody else who was about somebody who was about the Lord Lieutenant, might prompt him to have inquired into.

§ LORD MONTEAGLE
was disposed to object to a general power, but was afraid it might deprive the collectors of the op- 82 portunity of making their Census comparable in all respects and in all points of information with the last, and thus injure the relative value of the results. He would suggest that the noble Earl should postpone his Amendment until he had had an opportunity of ascertaining what were the exact points inquired into in the last Census.

§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH
said, he had no objection to the Government preparing a schedule, in which should be inserted all the subjects that were inquired into in 1851; but he did object on principle to this clause, which empowered the Lord Lieutenant to inquire into any subject on which his curiosity might lead him to seek information.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
said, the objections of the noble Earl did not seem to be shared by the Irish Peers. Unless there was some particular objection he thought it was desirable to keep the form of inquiry as near as possible to that which was instituted in 1851.

§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH
said, his objection was that these irrelevant subjects of inquiry would extend the time for taking the Census, and would increase the expense. He objected to it, therefore, on economical as well as Parliamentary grounds.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
said, the last observation did not support the argument of the noble Earl, because in Ireland the constabulary performed almost all the duty, and the expense was small.