RETURNS MOVED FOR. (Hansard, 11 February 1859)

§ THE EARL OF DERBY
said, that, in moving for returns of so extensive and unusual a character, he should have expected that the noble Earl would have stated the grounds upon which he made so exceptional a Motion. In point of fact, almost the whole of the information asked for was already before Parliament, in the shape of the criminal tables, which were annually laid before both Houses. Those tables were complete up to the end of 1857, and those for the year 1858 would be presented during the course of the Session. In these documents would be found all the information asked for by the noble Earl, except that which it would not be desirable to give. Independent of the objection to reverting to affairs of twenty-two years' standing, he could not see of what importance it could be to any one now to know who were the committing magistrates in cases that occurred so long ago; and the preparation of the Returns, containing information of so minute a character, would involve great expense and labour, without being of any corresponding value. If the noble Earl had advanced any reasons for seeking those Returns, he (the Earl of Derby) would have considered them; but, as it was, he hoped the House would support him in resisting the Motion.

THE EARL OF LEITRIM
said, he had not anticipated any objection to his Motion. The fact being perfectly notorious that a vast number of assassinations had taken place in Ireland, and it being also very notorious that in very few instances had there been convictions of the criminals, he had expected that the House would have assented willingly to his Motion. He had gone so far back as 1836, because that was the date of the passing of the Police Act. A great deal depended on the efficiency of 234 the police, and in his humble judgment, the police in Ireland were inefficient. He considered the police in that country were less to be regarded as ordinary constables than as political intruments; and if a Committee should be appointed, he would be prepared to prove their utter inefficiency, and that they were political engines in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant. He could not look without considerable anxiety at the continual increase in the powers vested in the Lord Lieutenant, which took place Session after Session, the result of which was that, in point of fact, the Government of Ireland was now an absolute Government. He contended that the Lord Lieutenant and his police—for they were his servants—did not protect life and property in Ireland. He hoped the noble Earl would accede to the Motion, but, if not, he (the Earl of Leitrim) must get the information he sought elsewhere.

§ LORD MONTEAGLE
said, that the noble Earl had himself given a sufficient reason that there was no necessity for the Return for which he had moved when he said that the information he sought was already perfectly notorious. He only applied this observation as an argumentum ad hominem conclusive against the Motion of the noble Earl, but not as adopting his statements, any one of which he was prepared at a fitting time to controvert. For example, he was not prepared to join the noble Earl in the censure he had pronounced on the constabulary force in Ireland; neither could he agree with him that the members of that force were the tools and instruments of the Lord Lieutenant. On the contrary, speaking in general terms, he considered them a most useful and well-conducted force. Then, again, he felt compelled to dissent from the statement of the noble Earl that the Government of Ireland was a mere despotism. A despotic Government was commonly considered to be a strong Government; most certainly that designation could not be given to the vice regal Government of Ireland, for nowhere, excepting perhaps in the Ionian Islands, was the administration of the Queen weaker than it was in Ireland. The Government of Ireland was divided both in administrative authority and in responsibility, and therefore it could not possibly be a strong Government. He denied altogether the noble Earl's (Earl of Leitrim) assertion of the mal-administration or non-administration of the law. He admitted that there were unfortunately cases in Ireland in which cri- 235 minals, from the sympathy they obtained among the people, could not be apprehended and brought to trial; but it was far from being generally true that the law could not be administered in Ireland. Though some few but cruel outrages had remained undiscovered and unpunished, Her Majesty had from the Throne borne testimony to the present satisfactory state of Ireland. There was no exception of Ireland made in the Queen's Speech from the general state of peace and good order, they were justified in saying that Ireland was now pervaded by a spirit of law and tranquillity. The words of the Speech were emphatic, and were as follows:— I am happy to think that in the internal state of the country there is nothing to excite disquietude, and much to call for satisfaction and thankfulness. Pauperism and crime have considerably diminished during the past year, and a spirit of general contentment prevails. Yet it is painful to think that it is, under these circumstances, that a Proclamation of an unusual and an alarming character had recently been issued by the Lord Lieutenant. He did not think it advisable that the policy of that step should be discussed at the present moment, when the trials of some of the parties against whom the document was specially directed were pending, and when the Government were precluded from giving explanations; but the matter would hereafter form a proper subject of inquiry and consideration. He would not prejudge the case by any observations of his; but this proceeding, like every departure from the ordinary forms of Government and procedure, required a justification. He trusted the Government would themselves produce papers to show the grounds on which they had acted. But this could not be asked or expected till after the approaching assizes. He hoped the noble Earl (Earl of Leitrim) would see that to call upon the law officers of Ireland, just when they were engaged in preparation for State trials at the assize, to furnish those returns was unreasonable in itself, and was, besides, asking them to do that which he was quite sure any man of much less energy and much less industry than he knew his noble Friend to possess could do for himself, by going into the library and calling for the annual Returns from 1835 to the present time. From these Returns he might get almost all he wanted, for he would get the list of persons committed, indicted and tried, the verdicts of the juries, the sentences, and 236 a return showing how far these sentences were carried into execution.

VISCOUNT DUNGANNON
said, if it could be shown that the Executive Government of Ireland had shown any apathy in the suppression of crime, that they had not used the utmost exertions to bring the perpetrators of the assassinations which had recently been committed in that country to justice, he could then see that there was some reason in the Motion of the noble Earl. But he must say that at the present moment such a Motion was peculiarly uncalled for. It was true, as was remarked by the noble Lord who had just sat down, that there was unfortunately a disposition among the people of Ireland to sympathise with malefactors, to conceal them from the hands of justice, and to facilitate their escape. But no blame on that account rested on the Executive Government; they had done everything that could be done to bring offenders to justice; both with respect to the attempted murder in Donegal and the more recent assassination of Mr. Ely in the Queen's County, with which district he happened to be more immediately connected, the Executive Government had done all that men could do to bring the murderers to justice. Under all these circumstances, therefore, and as the Motion seemed to him to cast an indirect and unmerited reflection upon the Irish Administration, he thought his noble Friend ought not to press for these Returns. Notwithstanding the commission of these recent outrages, he must still express his belief that at no period was Ireland in a state of greater prosperity than it was at the present moment; and he was convinced that this statement would be borne out by all who like himself were connected with Ireland, and were interested in her welfare. One word more. He must protest against the attack of the noble Earl, when he called the Irish Government a despotic system, and said that the police were mere tools in the hands of the Executive Government. He believed, on the contrary, that the police were a most efficient body of men; and, that though among such a large body instances of inefficiency or of misconduct might be found, yet, upon the whole, they had been of great service to the country.

THE EARL OF DESART
said, that although undoubtedly crimes of a very atrocious character had recently been perpetrated in Ireland, they must be looked upon as the acts of individuals and not as 237 affording evidence of the disposition of the great body of the people. Any man who had witnessed the condition of Ireland in 1849, and should revisit it after this lapse of ten years would scarcely recognize the country, so much had its condition improved. It was no doubt greatly to be lamented that there should still exist in the country a disposition to shelter from justice the perpetrators of crime, but he believed even that spirit was dying out, and he hoped to see the day when it would cease entirely. He must say a word with respect to the conduct of the Government in respect of their recent proceedings in the matter of the secret societies. People showed a disposition to blame the Government for the promptitude they had shown, and for the zeal with which the police had tracked out the members. It was said that the Government had shown a disposition to make a mountain out of a molehill. His decided opinion was that that affair would soon have swelled to a mountain if it had not been for the activity of the Government in dealing with it while it was a molehill. This was proved by the evidence sworn to by the approver, who said that he was told as soon as the messenger of the Phœnix societies returned from America he would be told what was to be done. He objected both to those Returns and to the object which the noble Earl had in moving for them, because he believed that the present state of the law was quite sufficient to repress crime, though it might be impossible wholly to do so as long as there was unfortunately a sympathy among the peasantry with the violators of the law.

THE EARL OF LEITRIM
said, he would bow to their Lordships' decision in the matter, and withdraw his Motion. He admitted that his Motion was an attack upon the executive Government of Ireland, but not upon the Government as it existed now, but as it was administered by the noble Lord opposite. He hoped their Lordships would look well to the conduct of the Executive Government of Ireland.