HL Deb 01 August 1859 vol 155 cc738-45
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY

rose to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the Question of the Admission of British Salt into China, and to ask what Steps have been taken for bringing the subject before the Government at Pekin. He presented a petition in the course of last Session upon this subject, signed by a large number of manufacturers of salt in this country; and the question involved was of the greatest importance not to the salt manufacturers only but to the commercial world at large. The balance of imports and exports in our trade with China was very much in favour of that country, and were it not that the trade in opium to some extent readjusted the balance, the consequences to this country, arising from the enormous drain of silver which would result, might be most disastrous to our financial and monetary system. It was, moreover, not at all improbable that China would itself grow the opium which was now imported from India, and thus create a great deficiency in the Indian revenue. If, therefore, he could point out that, by giving facilities to English manufacturers of salt to import it into China, this great deficiency in our imports could be remedied, be should be rendering a very great service to this country. China contained a population of 300,000,000 of human beings, to whom salt was a first necessary of life. At present the Chinese Government had a monopoly in the manufacture of salt, from which they derived a large revenue, and it was therefore clear that in asking the Chinese Government to afford facilities for the importation of salt into that country, it was but reasonable that we should secure to them a revenue equal to that which would be jeopardised by the change. The facilities possessed by this country for the manufacture of salt over the Chinese Government were so great that he believed that English manufacturers could afford to allow to the Chinese Government the full revenue which it now derived from the monopoly, and at the same time sell it at a cheaper rate than that at which it was at present sold in China. The Indian Government at one time stood in very much the same position as the Chinese Government with regard to salt, having a monopoly of the article nearly similar. It was comparatively of late years that the monopoly of the Indian Government had been relaxed. When this was proposed they were told that not only would the Natives refuse to consume British salt, but that English merchants would be unable to introduce it into the country. None of these "lions in the way," however, of the East India Company had been found in practice to exercise any injurious effect. On the contrary, the salt so imported had proved a source of considerable profit to the English manufacturer, and had proved besides a valuable addition to the sources of Native revenue, the duty on salt having been more cheaply and easily collected than it had ever been before. It would be obvious to their Lordships that customs duties levied on an article going into a country were more easily collected and more advantageous in every respect than those which were collected by a system of excise, and mixed up with fiscal operations in the country. To such an extent had the consumption of salt increased in India since the permission to import had been granted, that upwards of 100,000 tons were annually imported into Calcutta, and from thence largely distributed throughout the country; and it was even stated by merchants resident in India that this amount might be expected still further to improve if additional facilities in the way of bonding were afforded. But he thought it would be difficult to obtain the introduction of salt into China without securing in some way to the Chinese Government an amount of revenue equal to that which they derived from the sale of this commodity, which proved a very important portion of their revenue. The noble Earl (the Earl of Elgin) who had recently concluded a diplomatic arrangement with the Chinese Government, and who, through the energy and ability which he had exhibited, had successfully carried into effect a treaty with that country, in which he had so well preserved the interests of his own, had, among other things, his attention called to certain commercial transactions. No specific directions were, he believed, sent out from this country; but that noble Earl, animated by all the anxious interest which he had ever shown for the commercial interests of England, must have perceived that it would be desirable to effect some arrangement by which the introduction of salt into China could be facilitated. He had no doubt the House would be glad to hear what steps had actually been taken with that object, though he believed nothing conclusive had been accomplished, and the matter still remained very much upon the same footing as before the noble Earl went there. On bringing this subject before the late Government, he received assurances that instructions would be given to Mr. Bruce to bring the matter before the Chinese Government, and to endeavour to obtain from them some relaxation of the present monopoly—which course he (Lord Stanley) believed could not fail to be attended with mutually advantageous results. He saw by the papers that a treaty had been recently concluded between Russia and China, and in one article he perceived that permission was given to the Russians to have an Ambassador resident at Pekin, and also that facilities were granted for communicating with the Court. It was not clear whether this was to be a permanently resident Russian agent at Pekin, or whether it was to be a mere extension of the consulate which already existed there; but he believed that in the treaties which had been concluded with that, important and most interesting nation, the Chinese, England had been able to obtain the same privileges and advantages that were granted to any other country. He, therefore, hoped, that in adopting whatever course might seem good with regard to this question, Her Majesty's Ministers would, in the event of the Russian or any other Government sending a Minister or Ambassador to Pekin, deem it advisable to avail themselves to a similar extent of the powers conferred by the treaty. He also trusted that the British Government would insist on the right of direct communication with the Central Government at Pekin, on every occasion when the interests of the country might require it. It was only by this power of direct communication that they would ever be able to secure the full advantages of the obligations which the Chinese Government had entered into, and to check the efforts of corrupt officials at the outports to render nugatory the provisions of the treaty. It must, he thought, be obvious how important it was, both to this country and to China, that such an article as salt should be freely imported, and he thought it would be very easy to make such regulations as would secure to China a revenue not only equalling, but exceeding, that which she at present enjoyed from this source. The effect of the abolition of the salt monopoly would be not only to establish a snug trade for salt at Shanghai, but to get rid of numerous evils which had existed of late years, which had led to very great difficulties, and had been attended with very serious consequences. The noble Lord concluded by inquiring, what steps have been taken for bringing the question of the admission of British salt into China before the Government at Pekin, and also what instructions had been forwarded to Mr. Bruce with that object; and by expressing a hope that the noble Earl (the Earl of Elgin) would state to the House the position in which this country stood in relation to the right of maintaining an Ambassador at Pekin.

THE EARL OF ELGIN

said, as the noble Lord had addressed the latter part of his inquiry more particularly to him, he would answer the question to the best of his ability, leaving to the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to explain more particularly the directions which had been given to Mr. Bruce. He must, however, observe that in referring to transactions in which he had been per- sonally engaged as a diplomatic agent on the coast of China, he felt some difficulty in giving to their Lordships so complete an explanation as he should desire to do. The House was aware that when departing on his mission he had been furnished with instructions, and that during his sojourn he had been in the habit of communicating both with Her Majesty's Ministers, with private individuals, and with commercial bodies on all subjects connected with his mission; but for reasons which he believed to be entirely sufficient, because the treaty had not yet been ratified, neither the instructions under which he had acted, nor the Treaty of Tien-Tsin, with the tariff arrangements which had been entered into in consequence of that measure, nor yet the Correspondence which had passed between himself and Her Majesty's Government and persons interested in the trade of China, had yet been made public. He therefore felt under considerable difficulty in stating both what he had done and the advice which he had felt it his duty to tender to Her Majesty's Government. He could only trust that their Lordships would believe that, however incomplete his explanation might be, he had not wilfully or through carelessness neglected to urge any commercial interest of this country. Their Lordships would remember that he proceeded to China at a period of very considerable difficulty in the East—that it had been particularly enjoined on him that he should endeavour to bring to a close that state of hostilities the continuance of which was so inconvenient for the interests of this country—that he had also to consider the convenience and interests of colleagues who were the representatives of other nations— and there was likewise a consideration which weighed very greatly with him—he referred to the interests of the Chinese Government itself. To his mind, there could be nothing more prejudicial to the interests of this country than that the resources of the Chinese Government should become so crippled as to prevent them from maintaining the position of that country; and during his period of sojourn there nothing was more observable than the rise and fall in the value of British imports, which corresponded exactly with the rise and fall of the fortunes of the Chinese Government. Their value rose and fell with the influence of the Imperial Government just as certainly as the mercury in the thermometer is affected by the temperature. Under these circumstances he confessed that he had perhaps been prevented from pressing on the Chinese Government some of those commercial changes which he should have advocated had the interests of the Imperial Government been of no importance in his eyes. As regarded the particular question of the introduction of salt, he begged to express his concurrence in every syllable that had fallen from the noble Lord; and he could only say that it was with very great regret that he had found it utterly impossible to induce the Chinese Commissioner with whom he negotiated the Treaty of Tien-Tsin to enter into this question. At the same time, he did not despair of the possibility of the result desired by the noble Lord being arrived at. He believed the only thing necessary was to persuade the Chinese Government that their revenue would not suffer from the change. He might, however, state that it was not till the 1st of January in the present year that he had seen any representations from persons interested in the manufacture of salt, or who had interested themselves in favour of its introduction into China requesting him to interfere in regard to that question; and those who knew how difficult it was to introduce changes into Oriental countries would perceive that he could not then, even on the score of time, press the subject with any hope of success. He believed that if Mr. Bruce could persuade the Government of that country of the truth of the views so fairly and clearly stated by the noble Lord, he would have achieved an undertaking that would be attended with much profit and lasting advantage to the two countries. At the same time the House must remember that such changes were not easily effected, and least of all in an Oriental country. The monopoly of salt was not only very productive but it had likewise the prestige of great antiquity. Some of the records stated that it was in existence 1,100 years before the Christian era, and in an Eastern country a tax which had been paid 3,000 years became very popular. The system under which the salt tax was raised in China very much resembled that in which the opium revenue was raised in India. The salt-producing lands were let to farmers who were obliged to deposit the results of their labour in Government stores; they were then handed over to retailers, who were obliged to buy licences for the privilege of vending it. He might state that one of the great objects which he had laboured to accomplish was to improve the custom-house system of China; and he believed that if, as was now proposed, the monopoly in this article were done away with, and some effectual security given to the Chinese Government for an equal amount of revenue, it would confer much benefit on China. The only other subject to which allusion has been made was with regard to the ratification of a treaty between Russia and China. Of course the noble Lord would understand that on this subject he spoke with great reserve; at the same time he had no hesitation in saying that of the four treaties which had been concluded at Tien-Tsin the only one giving the right to establish a permanent embassy at Pekin was the English treaty; and though other nations might share in the advantages of the privileges thus acquired under "the most favoured nation" clause, there was no doubt that the right had originally been given to England alone. It would be found, on consulting the English treaty, that power had been given at all times to consult and communicate with the high officials of the Chinese Emperor. It was fair that he should also state that he had thought it his duty to represent to Her Majesty's Government that perhaps it might be advisable not to press at the present moment, with very great stringency on the Chinese Government with regard to the right of having a permanent resident at Pekin. But that the right existed, and was capable hereafter of being exercised, there could he no doubt whatever. Of course if any nation exercised that right under the reflected privilege of the British treaty, and was permitted to retain an Embassy at Pekin, he presumed there could be no question that England would be entitled in a still higher degree to act in a similar manner.

LORD WODEHOUSE

said, he had very little to add to what had been stated by the noble Earl, who was better acquainted than any of their Lordships with the affairs of China. He might state, with reference to the instructions given him on the subject of salt, that Mr. Bruce was desired in any communications he had with the Chinese Government to bring that subject as often as seemed prudent and convenient under their notice. For the reasons stated by his noble Friend (the Earl of Elgin) it was not impossible that the Chinese Government, looking at the fact that a large portion of their revenue was derived from salt, would not be very willing to add this to the important changes they had already completed; but at the same time it would be the duty of the British Envoy in China to take advantage of any opening that might arise for inducing them to break through the monopoly. With regard to the Missionary College belonging to Russia in Pekin, he might state that that mission was to be maintained, but without having attached to it any political character, while any permanent residence that might be enjoyed by Russia in Pekin would rest not on direct treaty, but on the clause which gave them the same rights with the most favoured nations. Undoubtedly great care would be taken not to forego, on our part, the right of permanent residence by a British Minister at Pekin, though, of course, the Government would in such a matter be I ready to defer to the opinion of his noble Friend, and would consider how often and for how long a period it should be exercised. Certainly, it would be most unwise for us to return to the old system, to let the right we possessed remain in abeyance, and to lose the advantage of direct communication with the high officials at Pekin. Some moderation must, however, be shown towards the Chinese Government, which had made very important concessions to this country, commercial and political, and which, if fully carried out, which he trusted they would be, could not fail of producing the most beneficial effects in all our communications with that empire.