HL Deb 13 March 1856 vol 141 cc29-33
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH

asked the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whether any inquiry had been made with regard to the papers to which he had referred the other evening; as being necessary to complete the correspondence now before the House respecting the fall of Kars?

LORD WODEHOUSE

said, there was no letter from Lord Panmure stating that General Williams ought to have the direction of the supplies of the Turkish army, the word "Panmure" in the Blue-book being very probably a mistake for "Clarendon," as there was a letter from Lord Clarendon to Lord Stratford, printed at page 145 of the papers, expressly recommending that General Williams should have the direction of the supplies. General Williams guaranteed the payment which had been referred to by the noble Earl the other night on his own responsibility, no authority having been given to him to guarantee funds or supplies. That payment was made by Tahir Pasha, as appeared from an inclosure in the same dispatch. The returns as to the time and manner of the payment of the Turkish Loan had been laid before the House of Commons, and could, of course, be laid before the House of Lords. The correspondence with regard to Schamyl, alluded to by the noble Earl, had no reference to Kars. Lord Stratford had written privately to General Williams to endeavour to obtain the release of the Russian ladies taken prisoners by Schamyl, and General Williams then wrote to Schamyl, who replied that before he received the General's letter he had already released the ladies. There had, however, been a correspondence with a view generally to obtain the co-operation of the Circassians in the war, but it could not be produced, as it might compromise individuals. It was, for obvious reasons, impossible for Her Majesty's Government to produce returns of the armies of our allies; and, while the war still continued, it would be not only inconvenient to give precise returns of the number of British troops at a particular period, but would also be contrary, as he was informed, to the established practice; but this was a question rather for the War Department than for the Foreign Office.

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH

expressed his surprise at finding that the measures for provisioning and relieving Kars had been conducted by the Foreign Department, as, without questioning the ability which had been displayed by that department, it appeared much more reasonable and natural that those measures should have been left to the Minister for War. Since he had last addressed their Lordships he bad discovered that the letter to which General Williams had referred was not, as he had supposed, a letter from Lord Panmure, but a letter from Colonel Mundy, stating the opinion of Lord Panmure. He had also found that the letter from General Williams to Lord Clarendon, with regard to a project for obtaining means of transport for the army, was a letter in the nature of a report, and was referred by Lord Clarendon to the War Department. Colonel Mundy's answer to that letter was, that Lord Panmure was of opinion that it would be impossible for him to do anything in the matter unless he were allowed to exercise more discretion in organising the army of Kars. He gathered from the noble Lord's statement that no authority had been given to General Williams to guarantee the payment of any sums of money for the purpose of provisioning Kars, and like wise that no sums of money or supplies had been at any time placed in the hands of General Williams for that purpose. If that fact were admitted, he wished to know whether General Williams had ever made any request to the Government, either for power to guarantee the payment of money, or to be furnished with supplies? He was not satisfied with the fact that General Williams had not received supplies, and had not been empowered to guarantee the payment of money; he wished to know whether he asked for that power; and, if he had asked for it, whether he had obtained it? He was perfectly satisfied with the noble Lord's statement that the Government had at any rate made an endeavour to obtain the co-operation of Schamyl. He thought the noble Lord, in objecting to a return of troops for which he (the Earl of Ellen-borough) had asked, was under a mistake; the return referred to the number of troops employed in operations which had taken place some time ago. No doubt it would be contrary to all reason to ask for the exact number of British, French, Turkish, or Sardinian troops engaged in hostilities at the present moment; but it was in accordance with the practice of Parliament in the best times, after some period had gone by, for the fullest information to be laid before Parliament for the purpose of enabling them to judge of the conduct of the Government. He could recollect, that long before he was a Member of Parliament, the most minute details connected with the expedition of Sir John Moore were given after the battle of Corunna. At a subsequent period the most minute details were furnished to Parliament with regard to the Walcheren Expedition. This was the ordinary custom in former times, and it was contrary to reason that they should not be informed officially, in order that they might notice officially that which was practically known to all of them, but with regard to which it was essential for them to have correct information before they could form a judgment upon the conduct of Her Majesty's Ministers. When he knew that no supplies had been furnished to General Williams, and that no money had been placed in his hands, he knew what opinion to form of the conduct of the Government, previous to the investment of Kars—he knew that they had done nothing whatever for the purpose of enabling General Williams to put supplies into that fortress. But he wished further to know what had been the conduct of the allied Governments after the investment, and in order to form a judgment upon their conduct it was necessary for him to know what was the number of troops at their disposal. He believed he pretty well, knew the number from the information he already possessed. In the middle of July the Turks had 60,000 men in the Crimea, 50,000 in Bulgaria, nominally 10,000 at Batoum—of whom, probably, not more than 4,000 were effective—General Vivian's corps of 8,000 at Scutari, and General Beatson's corps of 3,000. It was his belief that the number of the forces of the French, English, and Sardinians at the same period, before Sebastopol, was within 1,000 above or below 100,000 men. If he was right as to the number, there was nothing which that army, well appointed and well handled, ought, not to have been able to do without the assistance of the Turks. Napoleon conquered Italy with 60,000 men; the Duke of Wellington never had more than 60,000 men of British and Portuguese troops at his disposal in the Peninsula. Napoleon had only the same number when he defended Paris against 200,000 of the Allies. If, therefore, an army of 100,000 men was before Sebastopol in the middle of July, they knew what opinion to form of the conduct of the Government in not sending assistance to Kars. There ought to be placed on the records of Parliament an account of the manner in which the Government had disposed of the resources at their command, and he assured the noble Lord that he would find, on looking back to former wars, that no Government had ever made the slightest objection to lay before Parliament details of the nature of those for which he asked.

THE EARL OF MALMESBURY

said, he had himself given notice of a question on this subject. Their Lordships would remember that a campaign took place before Kars previously to that of General Williams, and that Kars on that occasion was partly fortified by General Guyon, who was an Englishman by birth, who had entered the Austrian service, and had been one of the most distinguished officers, in the Hungarian war. He wished to ask whether any correspondence had taken place between the English and Turkish Governments, through our Ambassador at Constantinople, relative to the recall of General Guyon by the Turkish Government; and, also, whether any correspondence had taken place relative to the military command held by General Guyon in the Turkish service, to which he belonged?

LORD WODEHOUSE

said, that a correspondence had taken place between the English Ambassador at Constantinople and the Turkish Government with regard to General Guyon, but that it was not thought advisable to publish it. As far as he remembered, General Williams never did ask for authority to raise supplies, or to guarantee the payment of funds. The noble Earl was probably right in his estimate of the numbers of the allied armies. The Foreign Office was not in possession of the numbers of the armies at the period to which the noble Earl referred, although there might be returns at the War Office on the subject; but he doubted whether any correct opinion could be formed from the numbers of the allied army before Sebastopol as to the operations which might have been undertaken by a portion of that army for the relief of Kars.