§ LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, that he had made inquiry on the subject of a question put to him by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Redesdale) with regard to the fire brigade attached to the House, and he had ascertained that it had been considered by the Board of Works, on the whole, not to have a mixed body of firemen and police in charge of the House, but there should be only one force for the purpose. It was ascertained that in the dockyards at Woolwich and Deptford the, fire department was placed in the hands of the police, who discharged the duty most efficiently. It was now intended that the police force attached to the House should consist of one inspector, two sergeants, and sixteen constables, in whom all the duties of the charge of the House should be concentrated, including those of the fire brigade. With regard to the police being inexperienced in this duty, he had to say that the firemen would be employed till the police were fully instructed in the necessary duties; and it was thought that then there would be ample security for the protection of the House. If his noble Friend wished to see the correspondence on the subject between the Chief Commissioner of Works and the Treasury there would be no objection to produce it.
§ LORD REDESDALEconfessed his entire inability to understand either the policy or the justice of the proposed change. On the contrary, he had a strong conviction that the safety of the building would not be adequately provided for unless it were confided to the care of a body of men intrusted with that duty and none other. The fire brigade were in that position. 1141 They were acquainted with every pipe that had been laid down, whether for gas or water; they were fully cognizant of all the duties connected with the arrangements for the security of the House, and they were in all respects as zealous and efficient as the men proposed to be substituted for them could possibly be. The new system would occasion a great increase of expense, for the men about to be brought in were exactly twice the number of those whom they would supplant. The greater part of these men had been engaged for eight years; some of them for a longer period than that. They had families, and were men whose age and stature prevented them entering the police force. Being in the service of the Government, they were naturally under the impression that their engagement was for life; but notwithstanding that they had always behaved admirably they were now cast upon the world without resources. Nay more, they were, before leaving, required to instruct the men who were to turn them out of their situations, It might be said that the engagement with these men did not differ from that with the servants of railway companies or other public bodies; but certainly no such body would, when discharging servants, require them to teach their duties to those who were to succeed them. He thought that the proposed change was one which would press very hardly upon the firemen, and would not tend to the security of the building. Nor was this only his own opinion. Mr. Goldsworthy Gurney, to whom was intrusted the whole charge of the lighting and ventilation of the House, had that morning called upon him (Lord Redesdale), and expressed his opinion that under the new arrangement the building would not be so safe as it was under the existing one. The matter well deserved the consideration of the Government, and he (Lord Redesdale) hoped that the proposed change would not be adopted without further inquiry.
§ THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, that, in his opinion, the existing system of firemen was not a good one. Within the last six years, there had been a fire which exposed the building to great danger, and in connection with which it was shown that there was much mismanagement. It was most important to the safety of the building that this system should be revised and reconsidered. Those who had charge of the pipes ought also to have charge of the cisterns. When the fire to which he had alluded occurred, the cisterns were found 1142 to be empty, owing to the water having been drawn off for other purposes without the knowledge of the firemen, who had no control over them. Unless there was one common control over the water, both in supply and delivery—whether by policemen or firemen did not matter—the danger which had occurred six years ago might occur again.
§ LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYentirely concurred with the noble Duke, that considerable danger arose from a divided control, as had been shown by the occurrence of the fire to which the noble Duke had referred. At that time the custody of the House was in the hands of Sir Charles Barry; the Board of Works had a certain power; and the firemen were a third body, under their own head. It was now proposed that the authority of Sir C. Barry should cease, and that the whole control and guardianship of the building should be transferred to the First Commissioner of Works, who alone would be responsible for their safety. It was also thought desirable that there should be no divided authority over the men who had the protection of the buildings. If there were firemen who had to look to one authority, and policemen who had to look to another, and to give aid or not as they might think fit, there might be a great conflict of authority, and would certainly be an absence of that uniformity of action which was necessary in order to prevent the recurrence of danger from fire. Instead of increasing, the proposed system would considerably diminish, the expense of watching the Houses. The estimate of the probable expense of the united bodies of firemen under Mr. Brady, and of policemen, was £3,000; while the whole expense of the police, who would be available both for the protection of the building and for ordinary purposes, would not exceed £1,500 a year. The cisterns would be under the immediate control of the Clerk of the Works, who would be always resident in the Palace, who was an officer of the Board of Works, and who would invariably be in direct communication with the superintendent of the police, who would also be resident within the building.