HL Deb 18 March 1852 vol 119 cc1226-30
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH

moved an Address for Returns, showing the Number and Charge of the Police in Ireland, and also the Number and Charge of the Rural or Municipal Police in each County and Borough in England and Scotland (in each case the amount of such charge defrayed out of the Public Revenue to be specified), and said, that his object was to point out the incongruity which prevailed in the systems now in force in Great Britain and Ireland, and to draw the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the connexion between the rural police of Great Britain and that great measure of national military defence which was then of necessity under the consideration of his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Derby). In Ireland the police was diffused over the whole country, and the expense of it was borne by the Government, except when a special force was sent into a disturbed district, or when a permanently increased force was required for the protection of a particular district. In this country there was no uniform system of rural police. In the year 1839 an Act of Parliament was passed which left it altogether to the discretion of the magistrates in quarter-sessions assembled to establish or not in their county such a force as they might think necessary, and to fix a limit to the extent to which it was to be carried. It was intended that there should be a certain proportion between the number of police and the amount of population in each county. Under that Act he believed that about half the counties of England had adopted a police force; but this force was by no means of equal amount in different counties, nor had the variation of its amount in different counties any reference to the exigency of the case. That depended on the wise liberality, or the shortsighted economy, of the different bodies of magistracy in quarter-sessions. The expense of the force upon the ratepayers was felt in some instances as a hardship. In the county with which he was connected, the expense of the police was equal to half the amount of the whole county rates; and it was with some difficulty that he had persuaded the magistracy some years ago to continue the force on the same footing as before, and which was absolutely necessary for the maintenance of order. It was quite obvious that if the police force were uniformly distributed all throughout the coun- try, their utility and efficiency as a police force would be much greater than it was at that moment; for in those counties where there was no rural police, crime was generated, and subsequently diffused itself over the adjacent counties. He suggested to his noble Friend opposite the propriety of introducing a compulsory measure to establish an uniformity of police for England as well as for Ireland. He did not mean to say that there should be the same numbers, but only that there should be an uniformity of system, and that the same measure of justice should be dealt out to the ratepayers in England as was dealt out to those of Ireland, and that a large portion of the expense in England should be defrayed, as it was in Ireland, by the Government. At present the only case in England in which the Government came to the aid of the ratepayers was in the metropolis, where nearly 100,000l. a year was expended by the Government on the police; out he could not see why the metropolis had a larger claim on the liberality of the Government than the country districts. The point, however, to which he wished to call the particular attention of his noble Friend was the connexion between the rural police and the measure for the national defence of the country. It must occur to his noble Friend, when he came to consider the course necessary to protect the country in the field against an invading force, that the very moment in which an invading enemy set foot on our shores, the operation of the law would be practically suspended from one end of the country to the other. Everywhere crime would break loose, and property would be in danger; and one great reason why he wished for the establishment of an uniform system of police throughout the country was in order that there might be an uniformity of protection when those who would have to defend us from the enemy were withdrawn. He therefore was of opinion that his noble Friend ought to revise the Act for calling out special constables, for, as the Act now stood, though such a force might be good for an unexpected emergency, it was not qualified to give permanent protection to the country when an enemy was within it. He therefore wished to ask his noble Friend whether he intended to adhere to the decision of the late Government not to give any aid to volunteer rifle corps? He should hear with great regret that Her Majesty's present Ministers had come to any such decision. The decision of the late Government had thrown a damp over the exertions of individuals, and had checked the formation of those corps. It was evident that in case of invasion they would be of great value. The parties forming them would not be of the same age and condition as the persons forming the militia to be established by law, but would be of a higher condition and a more advanced age. In peace, such a force would arm property with protection; and in time of war, with discipline and good arms, it would be a valuable aid to the regular Army by hanging on the rear and flanks of an invading enemy. With assistance from the Government, various things essential to the efficiency of volunteer corps would be furnished to them, which it was impossible for them to obtain without; as, for instance, an uniformity in the calibre of the arms they used. In his opinion, without such uniformity of calibre, such corps could not serve efficiently, even for a week. The noble Earl then formally moved for a return, showing the number and the charge of the rural or municipal police in each county, county of a city, and borough in England and Scotland; and also, for a return showing the number and charge of the police in Ireland; stating in each case the amount of such charge defrayed out of the public revenue.

The EARL of DERBY

had no objection to the production of these returns. He was sure that his noble Friend would not be surprised at his declining to enter at present into the differences existing in the systems of the police force in England and Ireland respectively, or into the reasons which rendered it necessary to take either the one or the other course. With regard to the Irish police force, his noble Friend was quite correct in stating that the expense of the Irish police force was paid by the Government. Some years ago, when an Act was passed for establishing that force, one-half the cost was to be borne by the Consolidated Fund, and the other half by the counties. Since then, another Act had been passed, whereby the whole cost was to be defrayed from the Consolidated Fund. He agreed with his noble Friend that the irregularity and want of uniformity in the rural police in this country, and the different principle and proportion by which it was distributed in the different districts, was a matter well worthy of attention; and he also agreed with his noble Friend that the expense of it being paid out of the county rates pres- sed heavily on one description of property: and possibly it would be right that the expense of that force should be borne by the Consolidated Fund, for it protected personal property and persons as well as real property, but being defrayed by the county rates fell exclusively on the latter class of property. The transfer of that expense, however, was a question involving a large national expenditure, and he could not hastily express an opinion upon it. He did not see the connexion which his noble Friend had drawn between a rural police and the force which was to be raised for the internal defence of the country in case of invasion. He knew that he should not satisfy his noble Friend when he said that Her Majesty's Ministers had come to the conclusion that the decision of the late Government not to give aid to volunteer rifle corps was a sound and reasonable decision. He was prepared to adhere to the same view, and should certainly not give aid to such corps at present. He would not enter now into any description of the objects of the Bill which would be shortly introduced into Parliament for the organisation of the militia. He hoped that when his noble Friend saw that Bill he would find it to be less objectionable than he anticipated. He agreed with his noble Friend in one respect, that where volunteer corps were established and sanctioned by the Government, it was important to have an uniformity of calibre in their arms; and it was a condition imposed by the late Government, that, though they furnished their arms at their own expense, they j should be of the calibre recommended by the Board of Ordnance; for it was important that all the arms of such a force should be of a calibre suitable for the supply of Government ammunition. His noble Friend would now be aware that the Government was not prepared to give aid to the formation of volunteer rifle corps; but he hoped that the absence of such aid: would not damp the patriotic ardour of which his noble Friend had spoken, and which no man could appreciate more highly than Her Majesty's present Ministers.

The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH

said, that there was one thing which the Government ought to do, and without which there would be no uniformity. Even if the Government would not furnish these corps with arms, it ought to contract for a supply of such arms by means of the Board of Ordnance, and should insist that all volunteer corps should furnish themselves with arms from the Government stores. They would thus obtain their arms at a lower rate than they could otherwise obtain them, and with this advantage into the bargain, that they would all be of uniform calibre.

The EARL of DERBY

said, that that was a matter at present under the anxious consideration of the Commander-in-Chief.

Address agreed to.