PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELAND) BILL. (Hansard, 4 March 1850)

§ The DUKE of WELLINGTON
My 311 Lords, I was about to state, before you went into Committee, that I object to this Bill. I object to the principle of the Bill distinctly; but I was so unfortunate as to be in a distant part of the country on the day on which the noble Lord moved the second reading, and I had it not in my power to attend in my place then to state my objection. With your Lordships' permission I will state it now. My Lords, my opinion is, that the Bill does not go far enough; that the Bill, as it stands at present will not put an end to the state of disturbance in Ireland which it is the intention of the Government that it should put an end to. From the accounts of the affair at Dolly's Brae, it appears that between the parties engaged in the disturbances which took place at Dolly's Brae, there have been many other occasions of disturbance. Many disturbances have, in fact, taken place, which will not be prevented by the state of the law as it will stand under this Bill. It appears that both those parties are in the habit of burying the dead belonging to the classes composing each of them with great formalities, which it is a common practice for the other party to interrupt, and that those ceremonies give occasion for disturbances as fatal as any of these processions. Now, I confess I never can understand the reason why the Legislature should not at once prevent persons in Ireland from appearing abroad with arms. For what reason is it, that in Ireland the population should be allowed to appear abroad, out of their houses, in arms?—a privilege which I venture to say does not exist for the people of any other portion of the civilised world. Why should any man be allowed to appear with arms, excepting as in this country—as in other countries—for the purpose of his amusement—for sporting? Why should not every man who appears with arms be required to produce his game certificate, or be deprived of his arms, or called upon to account for his having possession of arms under such circumstances? My Lords, what I desire is, that the magistrate, the local magistrate, should have it in his power, by means of the constables whom he has under his direction, to protect these parties in burying the dead from being attacked, during the ceremonies, by others who come out with arms. My Lords, the facility for collecting large numbers of people in Ireland with arms is deserving your attention, and I entreat you to allow a clause to be inserted in this Bill to en- 312 able the justices to disperse any such meeting, and to deprive those individuals of their arms who appear upon these occasions in funeral processions, or in an attack upon a funeral procession with arms in their hands. I am not prepared with a clause this night, but I give notice that either upon the report or the third reading I will propose a clause—I hope the Government will not object to it—which shall have for its object to prevent any person in Ireland from appearing in arms out of his house.

§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE
admitted, that in the observation which had fallen from the noble and gallant Duke, there was much matter deserving of serious consideration; but he apprehended that there would be considerable difficulty in introducing such a clause into this Bill, which was entitled "a Bill to Restrain Party Processions in Ireland;" and he did not think it would be expedient to convert this into an Arms Bill, though he was very far from saying that it might not be necessary to introduce such a Bill.

§ LORD MONTEAGLE
was convinced that if there was a point upon which all the well-disposed people of Ireland were agreed, it was that of the necessity of dealing with the question of the possession of arms by the Irish peasantry; and the Government were not doing their duty if they were not prepared both to consider that question and to act upon their consideration. He observed, that under the present Bill the arms would not be forfeited unless the people were commanded by a justice to disperse and refuse to depart. If they obeyed the command, they might carry off their arms, the possession of which was one of the badges of illegality for which the command to disperse was to be given. The prospect of forfeiture of their arms would in many cases, more than any other penalty, deter the peasantry from joining in a party procession; and he would put into the hands of the Government an Amendment he had prepared, which would impose that penalty, that the Government might either adopt the Amendment upon consideration, or return it to him, that he might move it.

The LORD CHANCELLOR
thought that the noble Lord had excluded the proclamation from his consideration. That document only consisted of a few words—it would only take a few moments to read it—and if the meeting, after it had been read, did not forthwith disperse, it would 313 be competent for the magistrates to seize the arms of all present.

Lord STANLEY
thought it would be very desirable if the object could be attained—he would not say of diminishing the possession of arms, but the prevalence of the custom of persons going about the country armed without any reasonable ground. He saw the force of the objection to the noble Duke's proposition, as not coining within the scope of this Bill; but that objection could not apply to this proposal, to enact the penalty of the forfeiture of the arms in the case of persons appearing in these processions armed, as well as persons refusing to disperse. Where the individuals could be identified, the arms might be seized subsequently.

The EARL of GLENGALL
had had it suggested to him, and would mention it for the consideration of the Government, that it was doubtful whether the Bill would touch parties who, wishing to commemorate a party anniversary, met in a field or space near the public road, and there displayed all sorts of party emblems, and had their firearms and their music, provided only they did not "join in procession."

The LORD CHANCELLOR
thought the words being "who shall meet and parade together, or join in procession," would include such a case.