HL Deb 08 August 1850 vol 113 cc931-2

Commons Amendments on the Bill considered; and agreed to as far as Clause 13, with Amendments.

The ARCHBISHOP of CANTERBURY

proposed an Amendment on the 13th clause of the Bill as amended by the Commons. This clause, as it passed the House of Lords, kept the common fund and the episcopal fund apart, but the Amendment of the Commons amalgamated them. The most rev. Prelate suggested, in page 6, line 39, of the Bill as returned from the Commons, to leave out certain words in the clause of the Commons, and to insert the following in their stead:— Be it enacted, that from and after the passing of this Act all such moneys as shall not have been applied to the purposes of the said first recited Act, or other episcopal purposes, shall be deemed applicable to the purposes of the common fund mentioned in the said secondly recited Act, and shall from year to year be carried to and form part of such common fund.

The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE

regretted that he could not concur in the most rev. Prelate's proposition. On the contrary, he perfectly agreed in the Commons Amendment that the joint funds should be made applicable to the wants of the Church at large. If the most rev. Prelate's Motion were adopted, that the episcopal part of the fund should be set aside every year and appropriated to episcopal purposes only, nothing would be left for the promotion of the general efficiency of the Church by the augmentation of small livings.

The EARL of POWIS

said, that their Lordships were now asked to amalgamate two funds which had hitherto been kept separate, and that too with this fact before them, that the Ecclesiastical Commission, to which had been intrusted the duty of forming new dioceses, and providing funds for those who presided over them, had never met once for that purpose since the last Parliament was dissolved, and the present Parliament assembled. What chance then was there, if the Amendment of the Commons were approved of by their Lordships, of the performance of the promise made by the Government relative to the creation of new bishoprics? The common fund was already absorbed, and the mode of distributing it was by annual grant. There were only two instances since 1836 of any part of it being invested in land; and those two instances were cases in which two sums of 1,000l. had been so invested. If these two funds were to be combined, the whole amount would be absorbed in increasing small livings annually; and when they asked for funds to be appropriated to the support of new bishoprics, it would be said that there were no funds, and that would be a just answer. The Amendment of the House of Commons was, in point of fact, neither more nor less than an insidious attempt to prevent the organisation of the Church ever being made more perfect than it was at present, or more adequate to meet the wants of an increasing population.

The BISHOP of OXFORD

thought it highly desirable that the funds should be kept separate as heads of account, and then, if in the course of any year Parliament should see fit to institute a new bishoprick, there would be a fund ready to apply to that purpose. He had heard no objection to the Amendment proposed by the most rev. Prelate, and he trusted that the House would agree to it.

EARL GREY

objected to the adoption of a proviso, the effect of which would be indirectly to imply that Parliament was of opinion that an addition should be made to the present number of bishops. He considered that those districts where there was now a want of clerical superintendence—and he knew of many such in his own part of the country—had the first claim on this fund after provision had been made for the existing bishops.

The BISHOP of SALISBURY

spoke in favour of his most rev. Friend's proposition.

Their Lordships divided on the Amendment:—Contents 22; Not-Contents 37: Majority 15.

List of the NOT-CONTENTS.
Lord Chancellor Gosford
DUKES. Leitrim
Leinster Minto
Norfolk Morley
MARQUESSES. St. Germans
Clanricarde Scarborough
Donegal Strafford
Lansdowne Suffolk
EARLS. Waldegrave
Besborough Wicklow
Bruce BARONS.
Carlisle Bateman
Chichester Brougham
Devon Camoys
Effingham Dufferin
Granville Elphinstone
Grey Eddisbury
Erskine Overstone
Foley Saye and Sele
Monteagle Wharncliffe.
Montfort

Amendment negative; other Amendments as far as clause 16 agreed to, with Amendments.

On Clause 16 (the Endowment Deans),

The BISHOP of SALISBURY moved an Amendment, the effect of which was to leave the arrangement of the salaries of the Deans of York, Salisbury, and Hereford, as originally proposed by the Bill. The clause as originally introduced had for its object to remove doubts, not only as to the present but all future deans; but, as altered by the Commons, the doubts which it had been the object to guard against would in future cases necessarily arise. He had therefore prepared an Amendment, the effect of which would be to restore the clause to the state in which it was originally sent down to the Commons. If, however, the noble Marquess would consent to strike a mean between the salaries of the Deans of York, Salisbury, and Hereford, on the one hand, and of Canterbury, Winchester, and Rochester, on the other, he (the Bishop of Salisbury) would not press his Amendment on the House.

After some observations from the Marquess of LANSDOWNE, which were wholly inaudible,

Amendment withdrawn.

Commons Amendment to Clause 16, and the rest of the Commons Amendments, agreed to.

Bill, with Amendments, sent to the Commons.

House adjourned till To-morrow.