The EARL of ROSSEmoved for the production of certain correspondence which had recently passed between the Poor Law Commissioners and the boards of guardians in Ireland as to the expediency of giving or withholding outdoor relief. He did not expect that his Motion would meet with any opposition from Her Majesty's Government; but he nevertheless thought that some little explanation was necessary, as otherwise his object might not be obtained. The correspondence between the Poor Law Commissioners and the different hoards of guardians was so voluminous that he felt great difficulty in so wording his Motion as to procure the production of all the information which he wanted. He was particularly anxious to obtain that portion of the correspondence which took place during the last five or six months. He understood, that in the unions of Ballinasloe and Dungarvan, the system of outdoor relief had to a considerable extent been enforced; and he had carefully examined the evidence of Mr. Power, given before a Committee of their Lordships, with a view to seeing what his opinions were upon the question to which he was now addressing himself; he regretted, however, to find that the evidence of Mr. Power was not so clear and satisfactory as might be expected from a gentleman of his experience and ability. Mr. Power, it seemed, had been asked how it happened, that in some unions the poor never received outdoor relief; and it would be collected from his evidence, that wherever the poor-law was well administered, they had not found outdoor relief to be necessary; but, wherever the law was ill administered, outdoor relief became indispensable. Now, their Lordships could not fail to see that a good deal of importance might he considered to attach to the subject which he desired to bring under their notice, and therefore did he feel most anxious to obtain any documents or correspondence which would throw light upon the proceedings of the Poor Law Commissioners, and the several boards of guardians. Whatever the conclusions might he at which their Lordships would arrive after seeing the correspondence for which he was about to move, one position was perfectly clear, that wherever there was least outdoor relief, there the amount of industry and prosperity amongst the population would be the greatest. He might mention the circumstances of that union with which he himself was best acquainted—the union 1257 or electoral division of Parsonstown; there I no outdoor relief was administered, and the rate was 3s. 9d. in the pound, while in the union of Tullamore the rate was much higher, and the practice of outdoor relief most extensive. For this dissimilarity no good reason could be assigned, at least none founded in any material difference between the one district and the other, for they adjoined each other; they had much in common, and he saw no ground for I thinking that the poor-law might not be similarly administered in both places. Besides the other information which he desired to obtain, he wished to know the; amount of increased expense incurred in the building of additional workhouses.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, that Her Majesty's Ministers had not the slightest objection to produce every possible information on the matters to which the noble Earl had referred. But he thought it would be desirable that the noble Earl should limit his Motion to the correspondence which had taken place during the last twelve months.
The EARL of ROSSEsaid, it would perhaps be better that the correspondence which had taken place during the last six months should be produced in the first instance; the rest might afterwards he made to follow.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, that the only desire of the Government was to produce the correspondence in the mode and at the period that would I prove most convenient. With respect to the case of the union of Ballinasloe to which the noble Earl had referred, he wished to observe that as the recipients of relief in that union exceeded 4,000, it was very possible that proper workhouse accommodation could not be found for them all. He confessed he was strongly in favour of the principle of confining relief within the workhouse; but, under the immediate pressure which existed in Ireland, and which he hoped would be but temporary, it was necessary that poor-law guardians should be empowered to extend the relief to outdoor recipients. The papers which the noble Earl moved for should be produced with as much despatch as possible, and as copiously and satisfactorily as the subject required.
§ LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that two questions of great importance were involved in the proposition of the noble Earl. One was the application of outdoor relief in times of pressure, and an- 1258 other was the administration of the poor-law by means of vice-guardians, It appeared to him that the adoption of the principle of outdoor relief was a most dangerous one, generally speaking; and he wished to protest most strongly against the supposition or the principle that it might or ought to be safely adopted on the score of economy. Higher questions than those of mere money were involved in that consideration. Some had advocated the principle of outdoor relief, because, as they said, they could afford a relief at a cost of 2s., which would cost 5s. in a workhouse; but, for his part, he confessed that, as a landlord, he would prefer a greater expense on a system of indoor relief, to a lesser on a system of outdoor relief, because he considered the practical social effects of the latter would be to strike at the root of industry, open the door to frauds, and render the administration of the poor-law almost impossible.
§ Motion agreed to.
§ House adjourned to Monday.