§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE moved that this Bill be now read 2a.
LORD STANLEYsaid, he was glad to find that this Bill was to be of only temporary duration, and, under the circumstances, he should not offer any opposition to its passing. At the same time, he thought the subject was one which required considerable attention on the part of Her Majesty's Government, whether the Poor Law Commissioners should not be required to specify the grounds of their proceedings in each case where they appointed vice-guardians. The two systems of elected guardians and of paid guardians were liable to separate evils—either they had local knowledge with local prejudices, or, in the other case, there was an absence of local prejudice, but, at the same time, an absence of local knowledge, which frequently resulted in the expenditure of a large and an unnecessary sum of money. He suggested that a remedy might be found in the vice-guardians calling to their assistance some of the more intelligent of the elected guardians.
The EARL of WICKLOWsaid, the suggestions of the noble Lord were no doubt of considerable weight; but he thought there were reasons on the opposite side which considerably outweighed them. He contended that responsibility ought to rest exclusively either upon one class or the other. He deplored any system which would divide the responsibility between the vice-guardians and the elected guardians. Both systems might be liable to peculiar evils and abuses; but he was sure that those abuses would be greatly augmented by a union of the two systems.
§ LORD MONTEAGLEfelt it Ins duty to support the present Bill; but, at the same time, he thought the system of paid guardians was peculiarly liable to abuse; and, while several excellent appointments had been made, he knew cases, on the other hand, where parties were appointed that were utterly incompetent to discharge the duties of their situation.
The BISHOP of CASHELrose to bear 163 his testimony in favour of paid guardians, 'instead of that class of guardians which generally composed an elected board, where it was too often the case that politics were: introduced as subjects of debate, instead of attending to the wants of the poor, He could state, that in the district of country with which he was acquainted, the ratepayers were thankful for the substitution of paid guardians; and the poor, to his own knowledge, were twice as well taken care of as they were under the old system. As to the expense, it was a fact with which he was acquainted, that in one union the paid guardians had made such arrangements that, unless a sudden scarcity of food should take place, such as was not at all anticipated, there would be a saving of 6,000l. or 7,000l a year. He believed, if there was a uniform and permanent system of paid guardians, both the ratepayers and the poor would be better satisfied.
The EARL of LUCANsaid, he would acquiesce in the measure without at all giving an opinion upon the point which had been referred to by the right rev. Prelate. A suggestion had been made, that, before the Poor Law Commissioners dismissed a board of guardians, application should be made to the Court of Queen's Bench to proceed by mandamus; and he was not sure that great advantages might not result from such a practice. He had had some experience, in the working of the system of paid guardians. In the county with which he was connected there were four unions under the management of paid guardians, and great complaints had been made of the mischief they had done from their want of local knowledge.
§ Bill read 2a.