SALARIES, &c. IN PUBLIC DEPARTMENTS.

HL Deb 30 March 1848 vol 97 cc1114-28

The EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH

said, he had given notice of his intention to call the attention of the House to a paper entitled "The Abstract of the annual account of increase and diminution in the number of persons employed, and in the salaries, emoluments, allowances, and expenses in all Public Departments." This paper showed the differences which existed in the amounts of salaries of persons in public departments in 1847, as compared with the charge for previous years. He thought it right to call the attention of the House to the subject, because the increase of charge during the past year was so very large as to make it necessary that some explanation should be given. He thought it very possible that Her Majesty's Ministers might be able to explain what had taken place; but certainly some explanation was desirable, more particularly when they considered the circumstances under which the country was placed in 1847, when the greatest national distress prevailed; when much suffering pervaded all classes of the community; when Her Majesty's Ministers were compelled to borrow eight millions of money for the assistance of Ireland; and when for several past years we had been subjected to the inconvenience of a deficient revenue. Under all circumstances it was the duty of the Government to practise every practicable economy in the public expenditure; but it became of imperative importance under circumstances similar to those we were placed under last year. He recollected the time when it was made a subject of congratulation on the part of Her Majesty's Government, that they had been enabled to make a reduction of one in the number of the Lords of the Admiralty, and thus effect a saving of 1,000l. per annum; but on the face of this document there was an increased charge, equivalent to the expense of 110 Lords of the Admiralty, namely, 110,000l. He recollected, soon after the Peace, great anxiety was manifested that every possible reduction should take place in all the public departments; and it was required by the House of Commons from the Government of the day, and was acceded to by the latter—that for the future the heads of public departments should not be allowed to appoint any new officers under them; but that when such increase was deemed necessary, it should not be made unless upon the investigation and under the sanction of the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury. It was also enjoined upon the heads of all public departments, that every possible reduction should be made. It was stated, and apparently justly, that this arrangement would be at- tended with great public advantage, as every department would be under constant revision, and that while the head of each department was answerable for the efficiency of that department, care would at the same time be taken that the charges should not be unnecessarily increased. It was very properly thought that this should be a general rule, and that all new appointments in public departments should be placed under the supervision of the Treasury. But it appeared that during last year there was a net increase of charge for salaries, allowances, &c., of a sum within a few pounds of 110,000l.; and that there was a net increase in the number employed in the public departments of 1,250 persons, of whom 1,109 were in the Post Office only. There no doubt might be a great increase in the business of this department, but some explanation was necessary. But deducting the 1,109 persons employed in the Post Office, there were still 141 persons added to the various public departments; and the charge for these persons were not less than 70,000l.; so that supposing the salary paid to each was the same, or the amount was divided equally, not one of them would cost the country less than 500l. a year. The total increase on the amount of salaries was 56,500l.; of emoluments, 14,500l.; of expenses, 31,000l.; and of retired allowances, 7,867l. This was the net increase. If they deducted the charge for all retired allowances on both sides, there was still an increase of 102,000l. It might be supposed that with the increase of the number of persons there would be increased efficiency in these departments; but it did not appear that the charge was altogether made up by the increased number of persons employed. In not less than twenty public offices there had been an increase in the amount of the salaries, without an increase in the number of those employed. In one department there had been an increase of expense to the amount of 6,000l., while there had been a reduction of six in the number employed. This was the more extraordinary, as all these officers were placed more than twenty years ago under the supervision of the Treasury. It might be supposed that the Treasury would be relieved from the chance of any possible additional charge; but it appeared that although the charge under the head of expenses of that department was 233l. less than it was in the preceding year, still there had been an increase in the charge of salaries of 1,300l., while there was no increase in the number employed. He next came to the Colonial Office, under the direction of the noble Earl opposite. In that office there had been a small increase of salaries to the amount of 222l. This was owing possibly to the arrangement by which the salaries of clerks rose after a certain number of years' service. There was, however, in connexion with this department, a very large charge which required explanation; he alluded to 4,333l. for retired allowances, a sum nearly equivalent to one-third of the net amount of the retired allowances from all the other public departments put together. It was rather extraordinary that in this department so many persons in one year should become unable to continue to perform the duties of their offices, or that so many should at the same time arrive at that age which entitled them to retire from the public service. He believed no such peculiarity had occurred in any other public department, except the Customs, where the retired allowances amounted to 5,646l. This also was a matter which required explanation. He had intended to call attention to one item, which was the increase which had taken place in the charges in the Royal Military Asylum; but his Friend the noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) had explained to him that that increase of charge had arisen from a most excellent arrangement which had been adopted, as to an improvement in the number and the character of the schoolmasters employed. There could be no possible objection to this. The Admiralty department came next. He had within the last few years been connected with that department himself; and whenever he wanted anything done out of the common routine, he was met with the objection that there was such a want of hands that it could not be done. In answer to this, he ventured to suggest that there might be an increase of work on the part of those in office; but he did not succeed in getting more work from the then existing officers. He confessed that he was disappointed in this; for some years ago, while at the India Board, he had never heard a man object to any additional work, or of work done "in" and "out of" office hours. He knew that the respectable gentlemen in that office frequently and willingly worked with him to one or two o'clock in the morning. He could not help feeling that within the last few years a great change had taken place in the class of persons employed in the public offices. They were taken from a different class from that from which they were formerly selected, and he thought the result had been most injurious to the public service. No one could look through the lists of the persons employed in the public offices, without seeing the names of many connected with the higher ranks in this country. Those gentlemen would, no doubt, make most excellent officers in the Army and Navy, but they were above clerks' work—they were above the general routine of the office, and did not perform their duties in anything like such a satisfactory manner as was the case with the other persons, who were equally gentlemen, in the proper sense of the term, with themselves, but who did not require so much time for amusement. In this department, then, without doing more work, there had been an increase of sixteen in the number of persons employed. The increase in salaries in the department of the Admiralty had been 5,061l., in emoluments, 4,025l., and in expenses and other charges, 461l. There was a reduction in the amount of the retired allowance; but there was a total increase of 6,506l. In the Navy and Victualling Yards at home there had been a reduction of three officers, while there had been an increase of 3,216l. in the salaries. In these yards, also, in 1846, there had been an increase of expense. It appeared, then, that in the Navy and Victualling Yards at home and abroad there had been an increase in salaries, emoluments, and expenses, after deducting retiring allowances, of not less than 10,000l. The next charge to which he should call attention was one of very great importance, namely, the increase in the Customs department; in this department there was an increased charge of 49,000l. Within the last few years a vast number of Custom duties on articles had been altogether removed, and they had been led to believe that this would lead to a material diminution in the expense of this department, and in the number of persons employed. The fact, however, turned out to be quite the reverse of this, for there had been an increase of 62 in the number of persons employed. The increase in the salaries was 1,857; in emoluments it was 16,500l.; in retired allowances, 5,646l.; and in expenses and other charges, 25,073l. So that in the Customs department, in which the work had been so materially reduced, there was an increased expense of 49,000l. After this it was somewhat re- freshing to refer to the return as to the Excise. In that department there had been a reduction of twelve in the number of persons employed. There was a reduction under the head of retired allowances to the amount of 2,019l.; and there were also large reductions under emoluments. The whole reduction connected with this department was 6,696l In the Stamps and Taxes, there had been a reduction of eight in the number of persons employed, 1,495l. in salaries, and 523l. for retired allowances; this made a reduction of 2,018l.; but when they looked on the other side, they found an increase in the expenses of 4,417l., so that there was a net increase in this department of nearly 2,500l. He next begged to call attention to the department over which the noble Marquess the Postmaster General presided. He asked what their Lordships supposed had been the increase in that department? He found that in the Post Office there had been an increase in persons employed to the extent of 1,109; in salaries, 38,399l.; and in retired allowances, 528l. It was not fit that they should be indulging themseves with the advantages derived from that department, without looking to the general return produced by it. On inquiry into that department last year, the result was, that the Post Office revenue could hardly be said to produce anything, when they took into account the deficit on transmarine postage. It therefore appeared to him to be specially necessary, when the revenue of a department produced nothing, or next to nothing, that the greatest economy should be observed in all the departments connected with that department. He next called attention to the convict establishments, where it appeared that, without any increase whatever of persons, there had been an increase of salaries to the amount of 3,310l. He must say that, on looking generally to those returns, he viewed them with great regret. He should have regretted to see such matters disclosed under any circumstances; but he peculiarly regretted them at the present moment, and he trusted that Her Majesty's Government would be able to explain how this great increase of charge had taken place. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) had not thought fit, in giving his notice, to state that he would submit any specific Motion to their Lordships; and all he wanted at present was— A Return of the Salaries and Emoluments allowed to the Persons added to the Establishments in every Public Office and Department in 1847; and also of the increased Salary and Emoluments allowed in 1847 to each Person who was on the Establishment of every Public Office and Department at the commencement of that year. If that return was not satisfactory, he should move for a Select Committee to be appointed to consider those charges; or, without moving for a Committee, he might perhaps move for the Correspondence between the Treasury and different Departments with respect to the increase and diminution of charges.

The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE

said, there could not be the slightest objection to give his noble Friend all the information he required; but he would suggest to him that he should put his proposition in a more tangible form. He could assure the noble Earl, that not only was there no disinclination on the part of the Government to furnish the fullest information, but he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) would be the first person to say that it ought to be fully supplied. He concurred with the noble Earl in regretting that there should be an increase of expenditure at any time, but he regretted particularly that it should have taked place in the year 1847—the year of all others when it was most desirable to avoid such an increase. His noble Friends who presided over the various departments to which the noble Earl had referred, would, from their official position, be better able to afford information on the subject than he could possibly be; but this he would venture to assert, that on inquiry it would be found, that in all those cases to which the noble Earl had referred, no unnecessary increase or additions whatever had been made. The noble Earl had called attention to the additional officers appointed in the Post Office; but the reason was, that a very great addition to the staff of that department had been rendered necessary for the public accommodation, in consequence of the increased communication with all parts of the country, chiefly in consequence of the additional facilities afforded by railways; but he thought, when the noble Earl came to consider the amount of salaries bestowed upon these 1,109 persons, he would not be inclined to indulge in the opinion that anything objectionable had taken place in connexion with that department; and especially that it had nothing to do with the prospect of a general election. He would take leave to relieve his noble Friend (the Postmaster General) from the burden of the responsibility arising from one appointment. In the county of Wilts an old woman had been appointed at his (the Marquess of Lansdownc's) instigation, at a salary of 10l.; and so far from that appointment being calculated to extend his influence in that county, he was obliged to use all his influence to find an old woman to fill it. He had also had to propose a measure in connexion with the Board of Education, which had led to an increased charge of 1,495l. With respect to the Treasury and with respect to the Customs, he was in possession of a very detailed report on the subject; and if the noble Earl persisted in his Motion, he should be prepared to lay that report upon the table of the House. He should mention that one great increase in the Customs had been occasioned by the appointment of an additional number of officers to the port of Southampton, to examine the steamers arriving there. The very great importation and distribution of breadstuffs, as they were called, had required the employment of an additional number of persons. Their Lordships were perhaps aware that a Committee was sitting in the other House, the object of which was to examine all this expenditure, and to suggest any reform that might be practicable. He need scarcely add, that any reform suggested by that Committee, it would be the anxious wish of Her Majesty's Government to carry promptly into effect. The noble Earl had not adverted—probably because he was satisfied with that subject—to the increase in the educational department in England and Ireland. In fact, it had been found impossible to carry on the inspection of schools without a considerable increase of expense. In conclusion, he could assure the noble Earl that the fullest information should be furnished, and in the most intelligible shape possible.

EARL GREY

regretted that, not having previously seen the notice of the noble Earl, he was not at the present moment prepared to explain to their Lordships the exact points to which the noble Earl had referred in regard to the return from the Colonial Department; but it appeared on the face of that return that in 1847 there was no retirement of any officer belonging to that department, and consequently no retiring allowance was granted during that year. There had been one retirement during the present year, which had occasioned a loss to the public service which he feared could not be soon replaced—he alluded to the fact of Mr. Stephen having left the Colonial Department. There had been a large increase in the charges on account of the Colonial Department during the last year; but they were not charges over which he could exercise any control, for they arose, for the most part, from extra postage. With regard to the return now called for by the noble Earl, it appeared to him (Earl Grey) that, if ordered in the shape proposed, it would be so voluminous as to require many months to prepare it. The noble Earl asked for a statement of the names of all the persons employed in the different public departments during the year 1847 who had received increased salaries and emoluments during any part of that year. Now, it was well known that the arrangement in all the offices respecting salaries was, that every clerk should receive a progressive increase of 5l. or 10l. yearly, according to the length of his service. If, therefore, the return should be made in the form proposed, it would require a statement of the names of many thousands of persons; in fact, of all who were employed in the Customs, the Excise, the Post Office, the Stamp Office, and every other department. The difficulty of making out such a return would be absolutely insuperable. It was always inconvenient for the House to order returns without previous notice being given as to their nature. When notice was given, then it was practicable for those who were connected with the different departments to devise a form by which the information required could be furnished without difficulty. He was sure, however, there would be no difficulty in devising such a form of return as would afford substantially all the information he required.

The EARL of AUCKLAND

begged to say, in answer to the observations of the noble Earl, that although he was not prepared to enter into details, he was quite satisfied that no increase had taken place in the department of the Admiralty that was not called for by the necessities of the public service. He knew that in Somerset House the books in the course of the last year were found to be in arrear for many months, some of them for more than a year; and for the purpose of rectifying this, many of the clerks after the usual office hours came there to make up the arrears, and were so engaged during the greater part of the night, for which extra allowance was necessarily made.

The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE

said, the noble Earl had called attention to the increased expenditure in the Post Office; he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) was quite prepared to show by the returns which had already been made to the House, that that increase was fully justified by the increased requirements of that establishment. He should have been quite content to justify, in the most general possible manner, the expenditure that had taken place in the last year, were it not for an observation which the noble Earl was pleased to make with reference to an election. Now, when he mentioned it as a year of an election, he should likewise have called attention to the appointments and increased expenditure which had taken place in other years which were not years of a general election. The Post Office, it ought to be remembered, was not an establishment primarily and mainly for the purpose of raising a revenue. It was in the first instance for the accommodation of the public, though he was aware it was also looked upon by many as a desirable source of revenue as well as of benefit to the country in other respects. But he would apply the same test to the returns from the Post Office of previous years which the noble Earl had applied to the return for the year 1847, and then their Lord-ships would be able to judge as to the relative increase of charge incurred by and the increase of revenue derived from that department. In 1845 the revenue of the Post Office (of course he was not counting the amount of the packet service) was 749,842l; in 1846, 825,112l.; in 1847, 984,496l. He had not the means of making a comparison with the year 1844, but the comparison between the years 1846 and 1845 exhibited an increase of 75,270l.; and the net increase of 1847, as compared that of 1846, showed a further increase of 159,384l. Therefore, if they took the noble Earl's test, he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) had a right to claim the privilege of making a double number of appointments and increase of salaries in 1847 beyond that made in 1846. But how really stood the facts? In 1846 the additional number of persons employed in the Post Office was 1,241; the additional number in 1847, as had been stated by the noble Earl, was 1,109. Therefore it appeared that while the net revenue, as compared with the preceding year, was double, the number of persons was less than the number appointed in the previous year, although, according to the increased revenue, it might justly have been double the num- ber. He did not mean, in making this statement, to throw any blame upon his predecessors, but merely desired to exonerate himself. He would remind their Lord-ships of the increased accommodation afforded to the public by the extended arrangements of the Post Office. The great increase in the circulation of letters commenced in the years 1839 and 1840. The increase in 1840, as compared with 1839, was 169,000,000. In 1841 the increase amounted to 196,000,000 over the previous year; but their Lordships would re-collect that discussions then took place about the Post Office; there was a difference of opinion between persons concerning that department—a stagnation, as it were, took place. He begged to call attention to the effects of the plan to increase the rural posts, which came into operation in the year 1844, and which was remarkable as showing what increased accommodation had been afforded to the public. He would then come to the present year, and would let their Lordships see what had been effected by the increase of expenditure to which the noble Earl had called their attention. The plan for increasing the rural post-offices came into operation in 1844, and a rise immediately took place of 28 per cent in the circulation of letters; and last year the increase was 30 per cent upon the previous year. It appeared that no less than 400 new receiving offices were established in the United Kingdom; 417 messengers had been appointed out of the 1,109; 870 persons in all had been appointed to the rural districts, and deliveries had been established in no less than 1,300 villages where they did not previously exist. In addition to this increase the business in the money order department had been greatly extended, and its extension had entailed expenses commensurate with the advantages conferred on the public. Their Lordships would thus see that whatever the increased expenditure in the Post Office department might have been, more than a commensurate return had been made to the public, both in regard to the peculiar accommodation which that establishment afforded, and to the addition it rendered to the general revenue of the State.

LORD STANLEY

said, that although their Lordships might be of opinion, when this subject was brought before them, that it was one which more peculiarly belonged to the other House, still the public were indebted to the noble Earl for having brought it under their consideration. While at all times it was necessary that a strict guard should be kept over the expenditure of the public money, there never was a period when it was more necessary than in the year 1847; and yet in that year it appeared to he a remarkable fact, that there should be in the establishments alone connected with the Government an actual net increase of expenditure to the amount of 110,000l. He had listened to the statement of the noble Marquess the Postmaster General, and also to the statements of the noble Lords who had preceded him. They began by saying they were wholly unprepared to give any explanation: and the statements they made certainly proved the correctness of their assertions. Now, with regard to the notice which had been given by the noble Earl, he (Lord Stanley) could not conceive how a better notice could be given; and the Members of Her Majesty's Government, connected with the departments referred to, should not only have known that this notice was given, but they should have been prepared to give a detailed explanation—if such explanation were necessary—with regard to the increase that had taken place in those departments. Out of 1,109 persons appointed in the Post Office, his noble Friend opposite (the Marquess of Lansdowne) had given them an explanation with respect to the appointment of an old woman, and said no charge had been incurred except what was necessary for the public service. That might be quite satisfactory to the noble Marquess and to his Colleagues; but he (Lord Stanley) saw no reason to expect that in the minds of the public it would produce a corresponding satisfaction. The noble Earl at the head of the Colonial establishment appeared to be in as blissful a state of ignorance with respect to the expenses of his department, as the noble Lords who had charge of the other branches of the public service. The noble Earl had complained that a certain sum had been charged to the account of retired allowances which ought to have been charged to that of colonial postage; and he even stated, as he (Lord Stanley) understood him, that last year there was no charge whatever on account of retired allowances. It was quite possible that the retirement of Mr. Stephen—a gentleman whose great merits he willingly admitted, and whose loss he deplored—might have taken place at such a period that the charge on account of his retired allowance could not come under the head of the expenses of last year; but it was right it should be understood that the item might be expected to appear in the returns for next year. It was understood that in the department of the Emigration office—which by the way was included in the Colonial department, and classed with it in the returns on their Lordships' table—a great increase had been made. If so, the natural supposition was that there must have been an augmentation in the number of individuals employed in that branch of the service; but it was worthy of remark, that the return on the table made no mention whatever of any increase in the number of employés. It merely specified the fact that there was an increase in the amount of salaries and retired allowance. This, surely, was an inaccuracy which ought to be remedied. The noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty had confessed, like all the other noble Lords who had preceded him, that he was totally unprepared for the explanation he had been called upon to afford—he had no idea that the noble Earl was going to talk about the Admiralty and Somerset House—and, truth to say, the sequel of his address testified the veracity of the avowal. The only reason the noble Lord could assign for the increase in the expenditure was, that he had found his department in such a state of disorganisation and confusion, and that the accounts had been so shamefully neglected, that he was obliged to work double tides, and to incur additional expense in order to bring up the arrears and reduce things to something like systematic arrangement. But if so, one would suppose that it had been found necessary to employ new men. Such, however, was not the fact. The old clerks had been grossly negligent in past years—it was through their inattention or inefficiency that matters had fallen into embarrassment and confusion—and yet what was the plan adopted for bringing up the arrears, and reducing matters to a state of order? Why, these same inattentive clerks were employed extra hours and paid extra salary, for extra work which was rendered necessary in order to remedy the evil effects of their own negligence in bygone years. This he could not help thinking a very singular course of proceeding. With regard to the Customs department, no explanation whatever had been offered. It appeared to have been entirely abandoned; and yet of all branches of the public service it was the very one which presented the strongest ease for explanation. Within the last two years the customs duties, on a very large number of articles, had been not lessened, but absolutely repealed—a proceeding which ought to have led to a diminution in the number of custom-house officers. No such result, however, followed. On the contrary, there had actually been a very considerable increase in the number of those employed, and in the general expenses of the department. In 1847 there was an increase of sixty-two individuals in the number of officers employed. Moreover, there was an increase of 1,857l. on account of salaries—of 16,500l. on account of emoluments—of 546l. on account of retired allowances—and of 25,000l. on account of expenses (whatever that might mean)—and the aggregate result of all these calculations was, that last year, so far from there being a diminution, there was an increase of no less a sum than 49,077l. in the expense of collecting the customs dues. With respect to the Post Office, the only thing unsatisfactory in the explanation of the noble Marquess opposite, with respect to that branch of the service, was, that his remarks would appear to favour the apprehension that year after year a largely progressing increase in the expenses of that department was to be expected. The noble Marquess had referred triumphantly to the fact that the increase last year was smaller than that of the year preceding. He represented that in 1846 it was 1,200l, whereas in 1847 it was only 1,100l.; but these two facts put together only gave this result—that the expense of the Post Office establishment was at the present moment larger by 2,300l. than it was that time two years. It was to be presumed there would be an increase in the year 1849 as well, and that the noble Lord would justify it on the ground that it was not so large as in the year 1848. However, he was bound in candour to admit that if it could be proved that the increased expenditure had been accompanied by a corresponding increase in the accommodation to the public, he did not think that after all there would be any just cause of objection or complaint, or that any one would have a right to envy the noble Marquess the certainly very extensive patronage at his command. The noble Marquess would have multitudinous opportunities of obliging his political friends, and indeed of disobliging them also; for though it was very true that a very large proportion of the situations in his gift had no higher salary than 30l. a year attached to them, and that there were not a few even so low as 10l. or 15l. a year, it was well known that there was not one of these places, however insignificant, that was not looked after as an object most desirable to be attained. In conclusion, he would only observe that if there was any objection on the part of the Government to the particular form in which the Motion of his noble Friend (the Earl of Ellenborough) had come under their Lordships' consideration, he would suggest to him the propriety of not calling on their Lordships to come to a vote on a Motion of which specific notice had not been given; but he certainly did think that on a fitting occasion their Lordships and the public ought to be put in possession of the fullest and clearest information as to the cause of this increase in the expenditure, and the persons whom it affected. He hoped that his noble Friend, omitting the nominal case of the Post Office, would on a future occasion move for the fullest return on this subject, and that, if practicable, he would include the communications which had passed between the heads of the various departments as to the causes of the increase. A full, clear, and satisfactory explanation of the real state of the case, and the true causes which had induced such a startling increase in the expenditure of the country, was due to the public; and it was the more desirable that such a statement should emanate from their Lordships' House, because the matter could not come under the cognisance of either of the Committees of the Lower House now sitting, inasmuch as one of them would limit its inquiries to the miscellaneous, and the other to the military estimates.

The EARL of AUCKLAND

explained: He had not said one word about the clerks in his department being guilty of negligence or inattention. What he had said, or at least what he had meant to convey was, that a greater amount of work had been thrown upon the department than could be managed under the old system without confusion—that business had consequently got into arrears—and that in order to prevent the future accumulation of arrears, he had found it necessary to increase the establishment.

The EARL of ELLEN BOROUGH

withdrew the Motion, observing that he would consult with the noble Marquess the President of the Council, with respect to the most convenient mode of obtaining the information he required.—House adjourned.