§ EARL FITZWILLIAMpresented a petition from an individual clergyman, vicar of a place in Oxfordshire, expressing disproval of the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor; praying for a new division of ecclesiastical provinces and dioceses; proposing to relieve the bishops from their present onerous duties of attendance in Parliament, and to confine them to their more appropriate functions; also to diminish their incomes, now inconveniently large for the pastors of the Church, so that the whole expense of the episcopate might be reduced from 163,000l. to 80,000l. The noble Earl observed, 667 that he wished to see the number of bishops largely increased, and on that ground he had always objected to the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. The necessary consequence of a large increase in their number would be, that they could not all sit in that House. He was favourable to a diminution of the incomes of individual bishops, though not to a decrease of the entire charge of the episcopate. He recommended the petition as well worthy the consideration of the House, and more particularly of the right reverend Bench. He was persuaded that the time would come when it would be necessary, not perhaps to carry out all the details of the plan proposed by the petitioner, but to increase the Episcopal staff.
The BISHOP of EXETERhad heard with great satisfaction almost everything that had fallen from the noble Earl. He thought it was the duty of the Legislature to take care that that most crying want—the paucity of bishops in this country—be very soon supplied. The question whether any additional bishops should sit in that House, was, in his opinion, a matter, he would not say of indifference, but at all events, it was a matter of minor importance compared with the question of an increase of the present number. In a country like England, in which the Church was recognised as an essential part of the Constitution, it was absolutely necessary that there should be an Episcopate adequate to the discharge of its high and sacred duties, and commensurate with the demands on its superintendence. He, however, did not wish to see any increase in the general episcopal income, which productive as it ought to be, and, he thought, would be in lay hands, was in itself quite sufficient to maintain a much larger number of bishops than the present number. With respect to the new bishops sitting in the House of Lords, he had very little inclination of opinion to the one side or the other. That appeared to him to be a secondary consideration; but he believed that it would be a great misfortune to the State, as well as to the Church, if the bishops, the representatives of our National Church, were excluded from Parliament. He should merely add, that he hoped the noble Earl would introduce some measure for the purpose of increasing the number of bishops.
LORD BROUGHAMthought that the present was a very great constitutional question, which ought to receive the most 668 careful deliberation. The increase of the population did no doubt render necessary a corresponding increase in the number of bishops, and he certainly did not think that the members of that body were overpaid.
§ EARL FITZWILLIAMwas of opinion that the number of bishops should be increased to forty; but that the existing ecclesiastical revenues were quite sufficient to provide suitable salaries for them all.
§ The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, it was to the last degree inconvenient and inexpedient to discuss one of the greatest constitutional and religious questions which could be brought before their Lordships on such an occasion as the present. If the noble Earl thought it would be advantageous to introduce any alteration into the existing Establishment, it would be far better for him to bring the subject before their Lordships in the shape of some definite proposition, upon which he would have an opportunity of ascertaining the opinion of the House.
§ EARL FITZWILLIAMthought such incidental discussions very useful, as they accustomed the House to meet those questions.
§ Petition to lie on the Table.