HL Deb 28 February 1845 vol 78 cc119-25
Lord Monteagle

rose to move for the Papers relating to Discriminating Duties on Sugar of which he had given notice, to which he believed there was no objection. When a discussion took place on a former occasion, his noble Friend opposite (Lord Stanley) seemed to consider him premature in offering any observations on a measure which was to come before their Lordships in the shape of a Bill; now it was precisely on that very account that he was anxious to make a few observations, because they were informed that the Resolutions about to be proposed in the other House would take effect from the date of the Motion passing, and therefore any objection to them if raised against the Bill would come too late for consideration. He had, on a former occasion, taken the liberty of saying, that if the reported intentions of Her Majesty's Government were to be depended upon, their scheme was open to the greatest possible objection, on the ground that although in every year since 1836, the question of the Sugar Duties had undergone Parliamentary discussion, it was now for the first time proposed to depart from the principle of perfect equality between the advantages conceded to the dominions of Her Majesty in the East and West Indies. A perfect equalization of duties was the principle of the Act introduced by himself in 1836, against which, from the time of its enactment to the present, he had never heard any one complaint or objection. He thought it still more necessary that this principle should be adhered to in conse- quence of the proceedings of the Legislature during the last year; it would be in the recollection of their Lordships that the measure then proposed by Her Majesty's Government, so far from being brought forward as a final measure, was stated to be only intended as a notice to the parties of the principles on which future legislation would be founded. That was repeated over and over again in both Houses of Parliament. The Bill of last Session contained no provision which could alter the effect of the Equalization Act of 1836; and after both parties, especially the East Indians, had, on the faith of the Act of 1836, invested a greater amount of capital in the cultivation of sugar, and had augmented their produce greatly to the advantage, not only of the consumer, but of the Treasury, it would be the grossest injustice to them to abandon from the principle of that Act by a proposition which would have the effect of imposing a higher duty on East Indian than on West Indian sugars. He had exceedingly rejoiced to hear on a former occasion from his noble Friend opposite that it was the intention of Government to adhere to the principle of equality throughout their present measure. He hoped he was warranted in assuming that that principle would be fairly and effectively carried out, and would be something more than mere words; but if a measure were proposed which would in its operation, in fact, impose a discriminating duty on sugar which was for the most part the produce of the East Indies, and that of the West Indies, it was practically immaterial whether or not this discriminating duty were imposed in express terms or were imposed indirectly—the fact was precisely the same, if the produce of the one country were really taxed more highly than that of the other. An artifice of this kind, he would not call it a fraud, was once attempted to be carried into effect by the Government of France with respect to the duties on iron. It was proposed by the French Government that there should be a higher duty upon the iron brought by sea than on that which was brought by land into France. Undoubtedly, no mention was made in name, either of England or Belgium, but the effect was the same, because English iron must necessarily come by sea, and Belgian by land. If the proposition of the Government in reference to the Sugar Duties should be carried out in the terms in which it was propounded, an inequality of a similar nature would be the practical result, or he certainly was in error, and he was in error in common with many of those who had the best means of forming a sound practical opinion. Since the former discussion occurred, he had communicated with several of the most eminent persons engaged in the East India trade, and undoubtedly the impression on his mind, from the replies he had received, was, that the plan of the Government would have the effect he had stated. One very considerable merchant stated that he was persuaded all the East India sugar would be called clayed, or equivalent to clayed, and would, therefore, have to pay a higher duty than Muscovado; another stated, that if colour was to be the only criterion, it would operate most unjustly against the East Indians. If colour and quality were taken into account, there were other insuperable objections to the plan. But that which showed most strongly the objections felt throughout the commercial world to the plan of the Government was a petition addressed to Parliament by the East India and China Association, a body comprehending, he believed, all the most eminent traders and merchants concerned in this branch of commerce. It was true that two very respectable firms dissented from the terms of that memorial; but, with that exception, it was unanimously adopted. The petition stated,— That your Petitioners believe it to be notorious that nearly the whole of the sugars imported from the British West Indies and the Mauritius are Muscovado sugars, and would be subject to the duty of 14s. per cwt. only; whilst from the East Indies, sugars, having undergone some process of purification by which their appearance more nearly approaches to what is technically called 'clayed sugar,' (although that process does not exist in India) the great bulk of the Bengal and other East India sugars would, from their whiteness, be classed 'as equal to clayed.' But your Petitioners submit, that although Bengal sugars gain in colour and appearance, they are rendered inferior in strength and grain by the process they undergo, and that your Petitioners are able to show that in the home market the average prices of West India, Mauritius, and East India sugars are nearly the same, and that, in point of fact, the Muscovado sugars from the West Indies bear an equal, and in some cases a higher price in the market than white East India sugar. Your Petitioners therefore submit, that practically, the introduction of the proposed discriminating duties, would subject India sugars of equal or less value than West India sugars to an additional duty of 2s. 4d. per cwt., thereby destroying that principle of equal duties upon sugar which was solemnly established after years of elaborate discussion, and inflicting severe injury upon the people of India, who, on the faith of the existing equality in duties, have entered extensively into the cultivation and manufacture of sugars, and oblige them either to relinquish the unequal competition, or to stop the progressive improvement in their manufucture; the discriminating duty offering a bonus to the export from India of coarse and inferior sugars. The general impression among those interested in commerce was, that the effect of the intended measure would be, to impose new and increased duties on East Indian sugar, as compared with the duties on West Indian sugar. If it were the intention of Government to impose additional discriminating duties, the mode they were about to adopt was the very worst they could employ. Their measure might be intended to remove the inequality that was objected to in the existing duties, and to substitute something approaching an ad valorem rate. But if so, it would utterly fail, as the papers he intended to move for would prove to demonstration. The Government of Earl Grey made a similar attempt with respect to tea, and had introduced a classification of that article, the arguments in defence of which were very plausible. It was adhered to for a certain number of years, but it utterly and entirely failed, and for a reason which would make the Government scheme in respect to sugar fail in a similar manner; for, draw the line as they might with respect to sugar, whatever might be the definition they would always find that the highest quality of the second class would be worth more than the lowest of the first class; and there would thus be imposed on the lowest qualities of sugar a higher duty than on the higher and better qualities. The fact was, that tea could be more easily classified than sugar, Bohea being distinguishable from Congou, but yet the maintenance of a classification had been found impracticable, and it was found necessary to revert to the imposition of a uniform rate of duty—the only possible plan, though it might sometimes operate unequally. But this was not all. The very experiment now about to be tried with regard to sugar had been tried and had signally failed on a previous occasion. In 1821, an additional duty of 5s. per cwt. was imposed on sugar, clayed or equivalent to clayed; that measure, however, created such dissatisfaction that Parliament was obliged to retrace its steps: nay, before Parliament could repeal the Act, the Treasury was obliged to interpose, and allow the smaller duty to be received on bonded sugar. On this subject he had with him the high authority of Mr. Huskisson. In 1823, on a motion by Mr. Woolryche Whitmore, for the equalization of the sugar duties, Mr. Huskisson stated— That he was willing to take off the duty of 5s. which had been laid, two years ago, on a particular sort of sugars coming from the East Indies, which was thought to be equal to the clayed sugars of the West Indies. Considerable difficulty was found in appreciating this particular sugar. The best judges were often unable to say whether it was a clayed sugar or not. To obviate the inconvenience to which the East India planters were subject, from having to send their sugars sometimes to this country, uncertain whether the protecting duty charged upon them would be 10s. or 15s., he was disposed to do away with that extra 5s. altogether. He (Lord Monteagle) saw no possible reason why the proposed measure of the Government, if carried, should not lead to all those irregularities and complaints which had induced Mr. Huskisson to repeal a similar duty. It could not be expected that landing waiters and surveyors could discriminate accurately in reference to the saccharine matter contained in particular parcels of sugar; this would be exceedingly difficult even for Dr. Ure, in his laboratory, to determine, and as a point of Custom House regulation it was utterly preposterous. An experiment of this kind must of necessity end in disappointment of the worst kind, as it would be sure to produce constantly reviving collisions between the officers of Government and the importers. Nothing was so bad for a trade as a perpetual state of contention and of uncertainty; and if circumstances had admitted of the Sugar Duties being made permanent, by the enactment of a well-considered law, a greater boon to a great interest could not have been conferred. By the Papers which he should now move for, they would be enabled to see the whole working of the former discriminating duty, the grounds on which it was abandoned, and the grounds on which a duty similar in its character and nature was proposed. The noble Lord concluded by moving for the Returns.

Lord Stanley

said, that his noble Friend must be aware that the Papers he moved for had already been laid on the Table of the other House, and, therefore, there could be no objection to afford to their Lordships the same information. Under these circumstances he could have wished that his noble Friend would have abstained from what he considered the somewhat irregular course of making observations on a measure not at present before their Lordships. He protested against this premature discussion of a Bill which was thereafter to come before their Lordships, but with respect to which even the preliminary Resolutions had not been adopted by the other House. If there were any doubt as to the inconvenience of the course adopted by his noble Friend, he thought the speech of his noble Friend contained full evidence of that inconvenience, because, to found his opposition to the measure, he had been obliged to take many alternatives, so that whatever might be the character of the measure, he might object to it. If the qualification were to be colour, that would not be a satisfactory test; if the qualification were to be the saccharine matter, that would be equally unsatisfactory; if the qualification were to be a chymical test, that would not be satisfactory. He ventured, therefore, respectfully to submit to his noble Friend that he should furnish himself with all matters of official detail, and with all details which might enable him to discuss the principle of the measure, and then that he should reserve his objections till all the facts and proposals were made, and then see against what point he could most effectually direct his artillery. He would have no objection to furnish his noble Friend with the particulars he desired; and when the Bill itself should be before their Lordships, he would be most anxious to submit the principle and the details to the most rigid and active discussion and examination; but he did deprecate any discussion on the Bill before the Resolutions on which it must be based were adopted by the other House of Parliament. He could not admit the statement of his noble Friend, that there would be no opportunity for discussion, though his noble Friend said, he knew from authority that the duties would take effect immediately after the House of Commons should have agreed to the Resolutions. This was true to a certain extent, but the duties would take effect on the Resolutions of the House of Commons, only subject to a confirmation by the Parliament. It would be just as competent for their Lordships to discuss the Bill which must be brought forward after the Resolutions were agreed to, for after those Resolutions they could only be carried into effect subject to future confirmation by Act of Parliament. The consequence would be that there would be no inconvenience in postponing the discussion till after the details should be before the House. He would repeat again the declaration, and he begged that he might be correctly understood—it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government with respect to the produce of equal quality, whether it was East India or West India sugar, not to make any distinction of duties: it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to give to sugar of equal quality in the East Indies the same advantages as to West Indian sugars of like quality; and it was their intention to give a protective duty to sugars of a superior quality, whether they were the produce of the West Indies or of the East Indies; but they did not intend to give, and the proposal of Her Majesty's Government did not give, any advantage to the sugars of one or of the other. And he thought he should be able to prove to his noble Friend that his apprehensions were unfounded, and that, in point of fact, a large proportion of East Indian sugars would be admitted for home consumption at the lowest rate of duty.

Returns agreed to.

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