HL Deb 11 August 1843 vol 71 cc539-44
Lord Brougham

said,—I yesterday had the honour to propose to your Lordships a bill which appeared to me of pressing necessity and of very great importance. I will now, in my own justification, read to your Lordships the statement which led me to propose that bill, and which, I think, your Lordship will admit fully justifies the course I have taken. I was not aware, when I brought forward this bill yesterday, that an Irish act was in existence—an act passed in 1797—which appears to render the adoption of this act less necessary than I then considered it; but, I will now read to your Lordships the language which has been publicly uttered, and promulgated through the usual channels of intelligence, by one of the principal of those agitators who are at this time seeking to sever the connection between the two countries. He says, Remember, my motto is, whoever commits a crime gives strength to the enemy. Now, experience has taught me, whenever such professions of innocence are made, to be on my guard, and to expect that the party who uses them will act in a manner the very reverse of his professions. You frequently find men saying— For God's sake don't break the law; the worst enemy I have can't do better than induce you to infringe the law; And in such cases I think it very pro- bable that you may expect something like a breach of the law. What follows? That is the doctrine we preach. We will Meaning shall— Soon have 3,000,000 of men who practise it; and I tell you no statesman ever lived who could resist a population of that kind. But we must persevere. These meetings I intend to go on with till every part of Ireland shall have 'pronounced,' as they say in Spain, or shall have declared their adhesion to our cause. The revolution of Spain was brought about by the military, but it was bloodless; and the tyrant Espartero has been hurled from power by the party of the army and the nation. The sergeants, even of the Spanish army, are a fine class of men, and they effected that revolution; but in the British service they are the finest, the most intelligent, and the most trustworthy men that ever existed. I am sure, my Lords, that they are; and I hope and believe they will prove themselves trustworthy as often as any base and disgusting attempt—an attempt of which I know not whether most to scorn the meanness, the despicable meanness, or to abhor the atrocity—whether by flattering their vanity or by pandering to their passions, shall be made to seduce them from their allegiance to the Crown. The speaker proceeds— In every other service the sergeants are made officers of; but in the British service they have not yet learned to do that act of justice; but if our cause— That is, the cause of repeal— Goes on, we will do them this piece of service. That is to say, let all sergeants who want promotion become Repealers. For then, he proceeds, the Government will alter their plans, and promote a great many of the sergeants for fear they should pronounce; (that is, adhere to the cause of repeal against the Government;) and I give them advice to do so from this spot. The speaker then alludes at some length to the revolution in Spain, and hints at similar proceedings. Now, my Lords, I have no great fear as to the result of such addresses to the sergeants; but I am not sure that addresses to the privates on the subject of scanty pay would be quite so innocuous. This, however, very plainly indicates that certain parties who preach peace in Ireland have one eye at least towards the army. Influenced by this consideration, I deemed it my duty yesterday to press upon the attention of your Lordships the revival of a bill which I proposed in 1833, and which I know fully effected the object for which it was intended, and put a stop to seditious assemblages during that year. I find, my Lords, that in 1797, an act was passed by the Irish Parliament—the 37th of George 3rd—which give the power of changing the venue and of trying in any county seditious offences, so that the Attorney-General prosecuting for such offences, either by indictment, or by criminal information, or by ex officio information, has the power by this act of laying the venue in any county. This was at first a mere temporary act, but it was rendered permanent by an act passed in the 38th of George 3rd, and subsequently by an act passed in 1817; and it superseded the necessity of any new measure on the subject. It may be said, and truly, that other offences may be committed, and that such offences ought to be checked by the prospect of some such regular and impartial trial as would have been afforded under the bill which I proposed. But from communications which I have held, I find that great inconvenience would arise even from the introduction of so short a bill as that which I yesterday brought forward, and that great delay would result to public business if this bill were pressed should your Lordships concur in it—during the brief residue of the present Session. I am disposed to hope that my noble and learned Friend will see the law, as it now stands, firmly and effectually executed. I am sufficiently acquainted with the characters both of the noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) and of my noble and learned Friend on the woolsack, to be convinced that—though they will administer the law with mercy and discretion—they will administer it with perfect and resolute firmness, undaunted either by abuse or by threats. We shall then see whether the opinion is or is not well founded that, under the law as it at present stands, such a trial cannot be had as the public service, the peace of the country, and the due and effectual administration of criminal justice require. If we find that such trials cannot be had, there will then be no possible objection to such a measure as that which I have proposed; and I entertain the most confident expectation that, in such circumstances, the measure will be taken out of my hands by my noble and learned Friend. Being aware of the existence of the Irish act of Parliament to which I have referred, and conceiving that the law as it now stands may possibly supersede the necessity of a new measure, I now beg to withdraw the bill which I laid on your Lordships' Table yesterday, and I am certain that if other steps should be found necessary a new measure will be promulgated. I hope I shall stand excused in your Lordships' opinions for the step I took yesterday. Nothing gave me greater satisfaction than to hear the declaration of my noble and learned Friend that, though he felt it his duty to oppose this bill, he entertained equal abhorrence with myself of the proceedings to which I called attention; and that a similar feeling was, without exception, manifested by your Lordships. I think, indeed, I may take upon me to say that upon this point not the least shade of difference of opinion is entertained in this House.

Lord Campbell

sincerely rejoiced in the withdrawal of this bill. He felt as much as his noble Friend the alarming state of affairs in Ireland; and he fully appreciated the importance of a speedy application of a remedy; but he felt confident that the bill which had been introduced by the noble Lord would have afforded no remedy whatever. When the measure of 1833 was introduced, a wholly different state of things existed. It was to meet a totally different grievance that that act was passed. Ireland was at that time in a state of great disturbance from agrarian outrage. His noble and learned Friend shook his head, but he begged leave to remind him of what was the preamble of that act. It recited— That conspiracies and confederacies against the rights of property and the administration of the law had prevailed in certain counties in Ireland. Now, although great evils were at this time in existence, there was no complaint of this sort. The preamble went on to say that— Many crimes had been committed, and that there was reason to apprehend that many of her Majesty's loyal subjects were deterred from bringing forward complaints of the commission of such offences in the counties in which they were committed. That was the state of Ireland at that time, and it was because prosecutors and witnesses were deterred from coming forward that that bill was introduced. But Lord Grey, in introducing the bill, expressed his opinion that it was a great departure from the constitution, and that nothing could justify it but the particular state of things. He said— That such a proposition would be monstrous if it were not justified by extreme and urgent necessity, and on that ground it was, and on that ground alone, that he introduced it. He repeated his deep regret at the state of agitasion in which Ireland was now placed; but that agitation was of a totally different character to that which had before existed; and he did not think that it would be at all quelled by such a measure as this, which, in his view, would only tend to produce further irritation. While, therefore, he rejoiced that the bill was withdrawn, he could not but express his firm belief that his noble and learned Friend was actuated by the most pure and patriotic motives in introducing it.

Lord Brougham

would only say, that his noble and learned Friend was quite mistaken in supposing that the state of Ireland was not the same now as it had been in 1833, because he had received intimation on that morning of some extraordinary instances to which he would not further allude, which showed that the grievances referred to by the noble and learned Lord were not at all confined to 1833. With regard to the opinion of Earl Grey, if his noble and learned Friend would do himself the pleasure and Earl Grey the pleasure of calling on that nobleman and talking to him on this subject, he would find, just what he was sure his noble Friend would be gratified to see, that the noble Lord was perfectly reinstated in health, and next, that he was in favour of this measure, and that he much regretted that this measure had not been carried at an earlier period.

The Duke of Wellington

said: My Lords, I was not in the House yesterday when my noble and learned Friend brought forward this measure, and I confess that I was a little surprised when I heard that he founded that measure upon the public announcement, as is usual in these cases, of a conspiracy—an intention to corrupt the army. I wonder that my noble and learned Friend did not see that this is the usual course on these occasions; that is, a public announcement of having an intention to commit a crime. That is the common practice now. But I will tell your Lordships: to plunder the public in Ireland of money for the purpose of O'Connell rent, or Repeal contribution, or what not, is one thing; to excite the common people of the country to approach as near as possible to the commission of crime, and to do all the mischief that is possible to be done to the country without exposing one's own person, is another thing; but to corrupt the army is quite a different thing, which I hope and trust, I may promise your Lordships will not be fulfilled.

Bill withdrawn.