§ The Marquess of Lansdownewished to put a question to the noble Earl (the Earl of Aberdeen) relative to some papers of great importance which had been communicated elsewhere, concerning an important branch of the treaty which had been recently concluded with the United States of America. The object of his question was to ascertain whether the noble Earl would object to lay before the House the correspondence which it appeared had taken place between the Government of this country and the government of the United States, relative to a difference of opinion as to the construction applicable to an important point of the treaty. He did not think that any objection could be offered to the production of those papers, and he, for one, should be extremely glad of any information upon the subject. He would also ask whether there would be any objection on the part of the Government to produce the instructions from the noble Earl to Lord Ashburton, when he was sent as a special commissioner. The instructions sent by a former Government had been produced, and he did not see any reason why the instructions to Lord Ashburton should not be produced. If the noble Earl stated, that in his opinion, the production of these instructions would subject the Government to inconvenience, he would not press it; but to the production of the copies which had been communicated to Congress he could see no objection.
§ The Earl of Aberdeensaid, that the despatches to which the noble Marquess referred had only been received that morning. He had certainly read them, and had no objection to lay before the House the papers which had been communicated to Congress; nor would he object to the production of such further information as could be laid before the House without inconvenience to the public service. He had not the least desire to conceal anything. He would not even object to giving copies or extracts from the instructions to Lord Ashburton, if the noble Marquess would so frame a motion.
§ The Marquess of Lansdowneaccordingly moved for copies of the correspondence between the two Governments, and for copies or extracts of Lord Ashburton's instructions.
§ Agreed to.
Lord Campbellregretted exceedingly that his noble and learned Friend, whose notice of motion stood for to-morrow evening (Lord Brougham), was not in his place, because the motion just now made by his noble Friend [Here Lord Brougham entered the House.] He was glad to see his noble and learned Friend, because he (Lord Campbell) was sure that he would be in his place, unless some grave cause elsewhere should exempt him from attendance. [Lord Brougham: It was a grave cause.] Lord Campbell would state for the information of his noble and learned Friend, that in his absence his noble Friend had moved that certain important papers should be laid before the House, respecting the article in the treaty of Washington, touching the right of search, and the interpretation put upon that treaty by opposing parties; and that the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Aberdeen) felt it impossible to enter upon a discussion of the motion. [The Earl of Aberdeen: No, no; he did not feel any such impossibility.] He thought it probable, that on this ground, the motion for papers had been at once acceded to, because the terms of his noble and learned Friend's motion, of which he had given notice, were not confined to the settlement of the north-eastern boundary, but declared,—
That this House doth approve the conduct of the late negotiation with the United States; doth rejoice in the terms, alike advantageous and honourable to both parties, upon which the treaty has been concluded: and doth express its high sense of the ability with which 314 the Minister sent to treat with States executed his commission.Now, one of the most important points involved in that treaty was the right of visit; it was a point in dispute when the noble Lord (Lord Ashburton) left this country. There was then a difference subsisting between the two countries, and the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Aberdeen) had written two excellent letters, which he had read again and again, and the position taken in those letters was denied by the American government.
Lord Brougham:I will save my noble and learned Friend all this trouble. His speech is addressed not to the House, but to me, because I defy the House, if I please to bring forward any motion to prevent me.
Lord Brougham:If I postpone it, there is an end of the matter; and if I refuse, why then there is equally an end.
§ The Marquess of Lansdowne:All we desire to know is what you mean to do.
Lord Brougham:Undoubtedly if I saw any reason to put off my motion till the production of the papers, I should do so; but I find that my noble and learned Friend, in informing me, has given that kind of information which is sometimes called misinformation; for, though he says that my noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Aberdeen) wished the motion to be put off, my noble Friend denies that he has any such wish. I am in the hands of the House, but if I put off my motion, it must be till Friday; I cannot do it on any other terms. The right of visit I admit to be a most important matter; but in the view I take of this question, it makes a very immaterial difference whether the papers are produced or not. The right of visit formed no part of the negotiations of my noble Friend (Lord Ashburton). The object was the extinction of the slave trade, and not one word was said about the right of visit. If I am told, however, that there is anything in these papers to affect the question whether the treaty were well concluded, or the negotiations properly conducted, I will postpone my motion.
§ The Marquess of LansdowneI hope 315 that my noble and learned Friend does not suppose that I have taken the House by surprise, I was myself taken by surprise by the arrival of the Great Western on Saturday last, 1 have, therefore had no opportunity of giving any notice of ray motion except that which I gave to the noble Duke this morning. With respect to the motion of my noble and learned Friend, of course he will exercise his own judgment as to the propriety of bringing forward his motion in the absence of ail information, or of waiting until all the information shall be furnished. [Lord Brougham: I postpone it until Friday.] One word as to what had fallen from my noble and learned Friend on the subject of the right of visit. My noble and learned Friend has said that the question of that right made no part of the negotiations. Now it is impossible but that that right should have been the subject of negotiation, inasmuch as there is an article of the treaty expressly referring to the subject. Therefore, if it were not made the subject of negotiation, there is an article introduced into the treaty without any previous negotiation on the subject. I think this clause one of the most important in the whole treaty.
Lord Campbell:I was anxious to inform my noble and learned Friend, that among the papers which are embraced in the motion which has been granted are, the instructions to the noble negotiator. Now, until these instructions shall be produced, it will be impossible to determine whether or not they have been properly carried into effect.
§ The Earl of Aberdeen:The noble and learned Lord seems to think that my noble and learned Friend ought to postpone his motion, because I have acceded to the proposition of the noble Marquess. I have acceded to that proposition because I see no reason to decline producing those papers. I have, however, only received them this morning, and though I have read them, I believe that I am the only Member of the Government who has. it however requires some consideration before I can determine the exact terms in which the motion can be complied with. I am ready to admit that any difference which may exist with regard to the interpretation of the article alluded to, exists with regard to one of the most important articles in the treaty; but I am confident that the difference referred to is much more ap- 316 parent than real, and I am sure that no difference exists which can lead to any inconveniences or any mischievous consequences. I have in my hand another paper, which will perhaps be considered of importance in reference to the motion of the noble and learned Lord opposite. It is a map, in which is laid down the boundary as settled by the treaty, and the different suggested boundaries, which was moved for on Friday night last.
Lord Brougham:I cannot allow this opportunity to pass without declaring that I entirely agree with my noble Friend in stating that the difference alluded to is apparent and not real. I have thoroughly examined the subject, and I pledge myself, as at present advised, to demonstrate to your Lordships that there exists no real difference whatever of the value of one rush. I am the last person in the world who would wish to proceed without possessing due information. Such a course would be most unsatisfactory to myself, to the country, and, most of all, to my noble Friend, who is the immediate subject of my motion. If I allow the motion, therefore, to stand for Friday, it must always be assuming that my noble Friend will be able to give the papers to the House to-morrow.
§ Lord AshburtonFrom the peculiar situation in which I stand, 1 may be allowed to say a few words with regard to matters of fact, respecting the subject of these papers. I am anxious to obtain permission to do so now, because, from the nature of the debate which will take place on Friday, I shall not probably be present. Now, with respect to the question of the right of visit or search, the proceedings on the coast of Africa were a matter of discussion between the two countries; and I am satisfied, that when your Lordships are in possession of the papers which I now hold in my hand, you will see that there is, in point of fact, no difference at present existing between the two countries on this subject. This has been as clearly made out as it was possible for words and meaning to make it. The two governments are agreed—essentially agreed—on the subject; and this question has really arisen since my noble Friend undertook the negotiations. The footing on which it was subsequently placed by my noble Friend has left no great difficulty. Undoubtedly, I went out for the purpose of meeting this question, amongst others, which were the subject of complaint on 317 the part of the United States. If there was nothing done on the subject from the time I armed till the time I left, it was because 1 beard nothing but satisfaction expressed at the last communication made by my noble Friend (Lord Aberdeen). No complaint was made to me on the subject, and it was not my business to stir up any subjects of complaint. I left that country with the entire conviction, that the ground taken by my noble Friend was perfectly satisfactory. Your Lordships will, I am sure, excuse me for stating thus much; because the question appeared to me at one time to be an extremely angry one, until I arrived there, when 1 found it very different.
Lord Brougham:Whether it will be convenient or not for my noble Friend opposite to be prepared by to-morrow evening, I will at once, to prevent noble Lords from being brought down to the House upon an uncertainty, postpone my motion absolutely to Friday next.
§ Motion fixed for Friday, and the Lords ordered to be summoned on that day instead of Tuesday.