HL Deb 12 July 1842 vol 65 cc7-17
Lord Wharncliffe

then rose, pursuant to notice, to present a petition from 1,600 persons who were receiving instruction in the classes instituted for the purpose of elementary education, under the sanction of the Committee of Privy Council, at Exeter-hall. The point which he bad sought to establish in presenting this petition, was, that it was the duty of Parliament to afford support to these most useful classes. The first classes which were established were singing classes, and their original idea was confined to the instruction of schoolmasters and mistresses, of persons who attended for the purpose of afterwards instructing others, and so it went on for some time, but by degrees the direct sphere of utility became enlarged, and class after class was formed of persons who attended for the purpose of learning singing on their own account. The undertaking was originated in the latter end of 1841, and at the present moment there were no fewer than 50,000 persons attending the singing classes of Mr. Hullah and his pupils, instead of one class only, as in the latter end of 1841, there were now fifteen classes, composed of persons of various grades in society—from those in the middle ranks, persons of easy circumstances, down to the humblest workpeople —all of them exhibiting the utmost desire to profit by the instruction thus afforded. In the beginning of this year it was found that the instruction in singing had induced the persons who attended these classes to form a strong wish for instruction in other elementary branches of education; and on this desire being made known, the persons who originated the instruction determined to accede to it, and accordingly classes were formed, one for writing, another for arithmetic, and a third for linear drawing. These had also answered the purpose well. There were now no fewer than 750 persons taking lessons in these three elementary branches of education. Should these institutions be enabled to continue their useful labours, there could be no doubt that in a very short time a large portion of the lower classes in the metropolis would be withdrawn from the public-houses, to which they now resorted for their evening's occupation and amusement, and the vicious habits which at present degraded and pauperized so many thousands of persons, would be in great measure abandoned. During the first year, this institution was supported by the payment from the persons instructed, and by private contributions. He would mention the amount which had been paid by the pupils. The schoolmasters and mistresses paid 15s. for sixty lessons; mechanics, and other per. sons in a still more humble sphere, paid 8s. or 10s. for the same number of lessons; while those who could afford it paid 30s., or 6d. a lesson. In this manner the best masters that could be obtained in the respective branches were provided, and the whole of Exeter-hall was engaged for the accommodation of the pupils. It was soon found, however, that there was so large an increase of attendance, that the former payments were quite inadequate; and, accordingly, towards the end of last Session, a petition was presented from these institutions to the committee of Privy Council, praying for support out of the education fund, but the reply of the committee necessarily was, that however cordially they might support the views of these institutions, they were precluded by the form of the grant for education from applying any portion of it to this purpose. He had then recommended to the Gentlemen who managed these institutions that choral meetings should be publicly held for the purpose of at once making the value of the institutions known, and of adding immediately to its funds. These choral meetings had accordingly been given, and with success, to a certain extent; for 900l. had been realized by them, and a most interesting and valuable spectacle had been afforded to the public of 1,600 pupils of this institution singing together in the most correct and excellent manner, and giving proofs of how much had been done in a very short time. These meetings had given the highest satisfaction to ail those who had attended them, and there were many musical professors of eminence—amongst others, the celebrated Mendelssohn, who had spoken in the warmest terms of the performance. The question, then, was — these classes having been thus established with the most beneficial results hitherto, and with the certain prospect of conferring upon the people of this country a great national and individual boon—whether it was not most desirable that Parliament should lend them its support. Notwithstanding all the exertions that had been made by the institution itself, in its various branches, there was still an unavoidable and considerable deficiency of funds. With reference to Mr. Hullah himself, who had been spoken of as having made so good a thing of these classes, the fact most honourable to himself was, that up to the present moment he had given his valuable time and services for nothing. All that he had ever asked for himself was 30s. per night; but not one shilling of this had been received, for he had invariably declined pressing for one moment this very moderate claim, in order not to embarrass the limited funds of the institution. It was, therefore, highly desirable that the Committee of Privy Council should be empowered to use its discretion in reference to applying some portion of the education grant to the most useful purposes in question, and here he begged to make a few remarks upon the general question of the education of this country, as connected with the grant allowed by the House of Commons for this purpose; and he thought that it was hardly necessary for him to show that the sum of 30,000l., which was row annually granted for the purposes of education, was altogether insufficient for that highly essential object. If it. were really considered a desirable thing, as most assuredly it was, that an impulse should he given to education in this country, then he felt that the House of Commons would not be doing its duty if it refused to increase this grant. The expenses under this head last year were 46,000l., of which 16,000l. were defrayed by a balance to that amount which remained from the preceding year. There was a balance of l6,000l. left from the previous year, to be added to the 30,000l. voted in 1841, which was to be left at the disposal of the Committee of the Privy Council, so as to enable them to make larger disbursements. The original purpose of the grant was to promote the building of school-houses; and although this object was well worthy of support, and well worth the money given—although there might be some doubts as to whether the money was well applied in some cases—they had found that schools had been built which were not very likely to last very long. Persons were aware that if they subscribed a certain sum, there was a fund from which they could get an equal amount towards the erection of schools, and no doubt in many cases this had been productive of great good. The question, then, was, whether a grant of money should not be voted for the establishment of normal schools, that was, schools for the education of schoolmasters and schoolmistresses. Before the present Government came into office 5,000l. had been voted to the National Society, and 5,000l. to the British and Foreign School Society, and another sum to Scotland for rearing schoolmasters. A normal school had been founded in Glasgow by a private individual, and it had produced a great many most excellent schoolmasters. The directors of this school wished to be relieved from the superintendence of it, but as there was a want of unity in some respects between these schools and the general kirk, the Government thought it advisable to say that they would take upon themselves the charge, if Mr. Stone and the other Gentlemen connected with the school would give it up to the control of the General Assembly. Those persons willingly assented, and the Government then informed the General Assembly that it was willing to propose to Parliament to grant 5,000l. for the establishment of a normal school at Edinburgh, and 5,000l. for the school at Glasgow, if that body would take the matter under their superintendence. That body willingly assented, and he hoped that the House of Commons and the country would enable the Government to make these grants. He believed that the establishment of normal schools in Scotland would be attended with the most beneficial effects. The knowledge of this grant had produced other requests for schools of a similar nature from various quarters. For instance, they had been applied to by the diocesan board of Chester, and they had been able to make such an arrangement as to accede to the request to make a grant of 2,000l. Similar calls had been made on them by other diocesan bodies, and from the National School, and from the British and Foreign School Society, and it was under consideration whether they should give annual sums to each of those bodies for normal schools. The Government wished to act with the most perfect fairness in this matter, and they therefore considered that they could only give them sums on certain conditions, and until the parties were in a state to fulfil these conditions no grant was made. He believed that such an arrangement might be made as to give a sum for this purpose this year, but he could not tell the amount that would be required. There were at present claims before the committee which, if acceded to, would far surpass any means at the disposal of the committee. He, however, was sure that the country would willingly grant a large sum for this purpose, if they found that the money was fairly and impartially distributed. The latter circumstance must mainly depend on the conduct of the persons in whom the distribution rested, and he confessed that he should be ashamed if in a matter of education any difference should be made be- tween Churchmen and Dissenters. He was willing to leave a large share of the education of the country to the Church, connected as it was with the State; but strongly attached as he was to the Church, he must say that the Church itself was deeply indebted to the Dissenters for the example that they had set as regarded the education of the people. The Church, then, was a body to which the State could give the education of the country, in cases where there was no interference with other classes. At the same time Government must take care that the sums thus granted were disposed of in a satisfactory manner. He must then state that he believed the public money would be thrown away without adopting a system of inspection in these schools. This right of inspection roust be actually secured in the deed, which would be signed when the grant was made. He believed that there was no indisposition on the part of the major part of the clergy to having the schools under their care visited by the inspectors; he should therefore take care that that should be done in all cases where a grant of money was made. Some difficulty, how-ever, might arise as to what were the duties of the inspector, and therefore instructions must be drawn up by the committee of the Council on this subject. There was no doubt that Parliament had a perfect right to call for the reports of the inspectors, not only with the view of seeing what was the state of education in the country, but also that they might know whether the money it had granted had been properly expended or not. He admitted that he thought it would be inexpedient to enforce inspection and returns from schools which were supported by individuals without any grant of money from the public. He thought that private persons would abstain from forming schools if rules were enforced on them by the inspectors, and if reports on the subject were to be laid before Parliament. At the same time he thought that if no reports were called for the inspectors would often be invited to inspect schools established by private persons, and their suggestions might be attended with beneficial effects. With respect to the schools supported by grants of the public money, he thought that the reports of the inspectors would enable the Council to draw up a general report on the state of education throughout the country, so that a tolerably accurate notion might be formed as to the general state of education, and that without interfering with private schools. The want of education in this country was so great, that it had become absolutely necessary to meet the evil full in the face. The Legislature must, therefore, determine to adopt the best plan that they could find to counteract the efforts which had resulted from the present state of things. The House had to say whether the present system of control was the best that could be adopted. For his own part, filling as he did the office of chairman of the committee of the Privy Council, he was ready to do his duty towards promoting this great and important object, and he confessed he thought that for the present, at least the committee might well and advantageously be made the centre of action for this country. If Parliament, then, would make a grant, there did exist the means for furnishing this agent for civilisation and morality; and he was sure, under the proposed arrangement, it would progress in a degree which had never been seen before in this country. They must, however, take care that they did not proceed too fast, but if they proceeded with judgment and care in a proper direction, he believed that this country in a few years would become one of the best educated countries in the world.

The Marquess of Lansdowne

had listened to the whole of the speech of his noble Friend with great satisfaction, describing as it did the state of education in this country; and he was more particularly pleased with the general sentiments on the subject of education which had been put forth by the noble Lord, which might be taken as an indication of the opinions of his Colleagues, and that they would follow up and extend the system and principles of education which had been sanctioned by Parliament for some years, and which he had been called upon to defend for three or four years. The noble Lord had clearly shown the great advantages that had resulted from the general musical system of education which had recently been adopted. This system was started by subscription from a few private individuals in a school in the vicinity of the metropolis. It had been brought under his notice in October, 1840, when he had the honour of filling the office now held by the noble Lord, and be then did not hesitate to give the opinion which the noble Lord had repeated that night, namely, that however desirable it was to adopt this plan as part, of a national system of education, under the peculiar circumstances of the grant at the disposal of the committee of the Privy Council, he should not be justified in recommending it. No step was at that time taken further than the formation of a private subscription, amply adequate for the purpose of making that trial which he felt confident would ultimately lead to the adoption of the system by the public, and to its being recommended to the attention of Parliament. The success of that experiment had far outstripped his expectations, for in the course of a very few mouths, he believed before the close of the year 1840, no fewer than seventy persons attended the course which was held at Exeter-hall, and before the spring of the next year three classes of 100 each were formed, and month after month the number increased of persons desirous to avail themselves of the benefits of instruction. And even at that early stage the progress of the system was not confined to the metropolis, but numbers came from various parts of the country, and many from a distance, to enjoy the advantages of this education. The number had now reached about 2,500, and the expenditure incurred was very trifling in comparison with the amount of benefit conferred. One great advantage of this system was that it included not only persons conducted by their ear or the peculiarity of their constitution to the study and the practice of music, but it comprised the pleasure and the utility of music, for it had utility as well as pleasure to every species of physical constitution, and enabled whole masses to partake at once of its pleasure and its beneficial results. It was, therefore, a very fit question for Parliament to consider, whether it would enable the committee of Privy Council to apply a portion of the grants voted for the purposes of public education to this particular branch of instruction. But great as was his anxiety to see such assistance given, he should be sorry to see any portion on that account deducted from the grants for general education; but, on the contrary, he wanted to see these grants extended also, and even beyond the amount that might be required for the particular service in question, for great as had been the success of the new system, it had never been contemplated that the amount should be confined to its present limited amount; but that when a more unanimous, and he would say a more liberal and generous spirit should be found to pervade the country in favour of education, the public grants should be considered with a view to their extension. He had great satisfaction in finding that the effect of these grants had been progressive, for there was not a month since the origin of the system that had not added to the number of applicants for assistance to institute such schools, and an immense amount of private zeal had been called into action, thousands of schools having been established and being now in a flourishing condition, owing to the stimulus given by these grants. With respect to the inspection he thought it ought to be exercised under an authority independent of the local authorities under whose management the school was conducted; and he was glad to find it admitted now, that, in the absence of any department in this country to preside over education, no authority could be selected which was more fit to exercise the functions of inspection and control than the committee of the Privy Council; and he rejoiced that some, who had entertained the strongest objections to the constitution of that tribunal, had now so far waived their hostility to it, as not only to suffer those functions to be exercised by others, but even to have consented to become Members of it themselves. He was glad that the noble President of the Council intended to propose annual grants for some of the normal schools, provided they were administered, as no doubt would be the case, with impartiality, and preserving the authority of inspection, which was absolutely necessary, both to secure the strict application of the grant, and for the purposes of making the normal schools available for the improvement of other schools. It might also be desirable to extend inspection to schools which did not receive any public money, with the implied condition that the reports relating to them should not be laid before Parliament. There was one document which proved in a most forcible manner the necessity for an extension of education amongst the working classes in this country. It was the opinion given of the respective capacities of the natives of dif- ferent countries, by a person at the head of one of the most extensive manufactories in the world, in a manufactory at Zurich, in which Swiss, Saxons, Italians, French, and English were employed as mechanics. He was asked, What, however, do you find to be the difference of acquisition imparted by specific training and education? His answer was, As workmen only, the preference is undoubtedly due to Englishmen, because, as we find them, they are all trained to a specific branch, on which they have had a comparatively superior training, and on which all their thoughts are concentrated; as men of business, however, and of general usefulness, we prefer the Saxons and the Swiss, but more especially the Saxons, because they have had a careful general education, which has extended their capacities beyond any special employment, and has rendered them fit to undertake any species of business. If I have an English workman engaged in the erection of a steam engine, he will understand it, and nothing else, but with respect to other branches of machinery, however closely allied to the steam engine, he will be completely helpless to adapt himself to the circumstances which may arise—to make arrangements for them, or to give sound advice respecting them. This was evidence which came from an impartial witness, and was the most remarkable testimony which he had seen borne to the absolute necessity which at all times, but above all at the present time, existed, when thousands might from day to day be ejected from the employment in which they had been engaged, and might be called upon to adapt themselves to the circumstances which might arise for the Government, in pursuance of a wise and liberal policy, to endeavour by every means which Parliamentary grants gave them, to aid in the private exertions which were being made to extend the general principle of Education, and to hasten the time when there should be a general development of the educational system of England, so that the English mechanic might be enabled to meet the exigencies which might present themselves.

Lord Brougham

most heartily concurred in thanking his noble Friend opposite for the statement which he had made, and in expressing himself satisfied with the course which the Government had taken on this subject. His only regret was, that the noble Lord had not been prepared to go further, and his only difference from the noble Lord was in the apprehensions which he had expressed, and in which he, for his own part, did not share at all—that the progress of education should be too rapid. He had been so long, endeavouring to promote the object of education however, that any—however moderate —advance gave him hopes that ere long he might look for an even accelerated pace in: the progress of this great cause, and he professed that it was one of the very last things which he feared, that too great an impetus should have been given to it. No doubt, the steps which had been already taken were in the right path, and! he would not stop to complain of the degree in which he contended they had fallen short of that which he viewed as I necessary, because, in all that had been I done, he entirely agreed. There was one part of the statement of the noble Lord, | however, which he had heard with some surprise. He had said, that 5,000l had been put under the direction of the General Assembly of Scotland, for the purposes of the training schools. No one had a higher respect for that assembly than he had, but he could not help thinking that it would be highly desirable that some i arrangement should be made for dissenting in Scotland a portion of this grant amongst the dissenting bodies—the bodies not in connection with the General Assembly—in the same manner as it was distributed to bodies in a similar situation in England. He begged, therefore, to suggest to the noble Lord, that in the event of another grant being obtained, as he had no doubt it would be obtained, some arrangement with this view should be effected.

Lord Wharncliffe

If the dissenting body in Scotland would form such an association as existed in England, and would undertake to build a normal school, the time would then arrive for their applying for a part of the grant.

Petition laid on the Table.

Adjourned at a quarter before eight o'clock.