The Marquis of Lansdownerose to present the petition of which he gave notice yesterday. The petition he was about to present, was from a body so respectable in their character and position in society, and at the same time so deeply interested in the present state of the commerce of this country,—unfortunate state, be was afraid he must call it—that certainly they had had peculiar reason for applying their most anxious consideration to that particular position, and for bringing their views upon that subject before their Lordships, The parties to this petition were the master woollen manufacturers of the West of England, chiefly situate in the counties of Gloucester, Somerset, and Wilts. Towards the close of last year, business in all those counties getting daily worse, upon a communication between the master manufacturers it was agreed that a conference should take place for the purpose of throwing light upon the subject, and ascertaining the opinions of the general body in that part of the country. A meeting was accordingly held at Bath, and, after exchanging communications, they came to certain resolutions, which were embodied in this petition. The petitioners in the first place, stated, that it was their opinion that there was a gradual decline in the woollen trade, which was fearfully destroying capital, neutralizing skill, and pauperising the working classes 134 of society. They then proceeded to state that the evils they deplored were, in their opinion, principally, if not entirely, occasioned by partial legislation, founded on the principle of protection, and more especially by the unjust and oppressive effect of the corn and provision laws; and thirdly, they declared it to be their opinion that all restrictive and prohibitory duties interfering with the free exchange of commodities, and not levied solely for the purpose of revenue, were, in principle, erroneous and unjust, and in their effects prejudicial to all classes of the community; and they conclude by praying, and by stating it as their desire, that all duties intended for the British manufactures, should also be repealed. Upon each of these points, he should offer a very few observations. With respect to the first proposition, he was afraid it was one which admitted of no doubt; namely, the decline of the woollen trade. There had been, perhaps, too much declamation and loose assertion upon the subject of distress, true and unquestionable as it was, that it prevailed among the manufacturing population of this country. But, although he should not dwell upon any such general statement, and general declamation, it was as well to have recourse to facts which could be proved. Without troubling their Lordships with any details at length, he might state, with regard to that manufacture to which this petition alluded, that the following had been the state of it in some of the principal places in the West of England. In Bradford, there were, in the year 1820, nineteen master manufacturers, producing 620 pieces of cloth per week; in the last year, these nineteen had diminished to two, and the quantity of pieces produced was reduced to 100. Of the nineteen masters, nine had failed, five had declined business for want of success, three had gone into other establishments, and there remained two only. Unquestionably Bradford was, from its local circumstances, one of the places affected by the greatest suffering, but suffering was by no means confined to that place—it extended, in a greater or less degree, to all the towns engaged in the woollen manufacture. In Trowbridge, one-third only of the looms were now employed. In Frome, which was one of the principal towns in Somersetshire, and might be taken as a fair representative of the state of trade in that county, twenty years ago there were twenty-eight woollen manufactories; now 135 only fifteen were employed, and these not wholly, five were only occasionally employed, five were entirely shut up, and three were converted to other purposes; and, from having altogether fifty establishments of cloth and kerseymere manufactures, making 300 pieces per week, there were now only fourteen establishments, making 150 pieces per week. So much for Somersetshire. As to Gloucestershire, it appeared from the reports the petitioners had been able to collect, that ten years ago there were 133 mills at work, but there were now seventy-seven only. In the year 1831 there were in Gloucester 1,083 looms at work, and now only 430; while in the county generally, in 1831, there were 3,200 looms, and now 1,530. He would not trouble their Lordships with details. He was sure he had stated enough to prove to their Lordships the rapid decline of the woollen manufacture; and that which must follow such a decline was, the increased misery of the people, increased Poor-rates, and a diminished consumption of agricultural produce in the neighbourhood of those towns. He had heard it said, and he had been led more to entertain that opinion himself than was perhaps justifiable on former occasions, that there was a disposition in the trade to quit that part of the country, and to take refuge, or rather to establish itself, in other and distant, and particularly in the more northern parts of England. But, upon a communication with these gentlemen, they stated to him (the Marquess of Lansdowne) that they acknowledge no ground whatever for trade removing itself from that district to another, they had advantages nearly similar of fuel and water carriage, and they appealed to that to which, unfortunately, they might appeal with great justice and confidence—to the fact that in the north of England, and even in Scotland itself, the same distress, and the same decline of trade prevailed. The petitioners proceeded to inform their Lordships that, upon consideration, they were of opinion, that the state of the Corn-law, if not wholly, was the principal cause of that decline. He, for one, was not prepared to state, that he considered the Corn-law as the sole cause of the decline of trade. He, perhaps, might not be disposed even to think that it was a cause to the same overwhelming degree that these petitioners considered it to be; but of this he was well convinced, that if there 136 were other causes at work operating that declination, the state of the Corn-laws was that which interfered with all the natural remedies for a declining trade, and that the vis medicatrix which existed in all trades, and which was inherent in commerce, was by those laws deprived of its power, force, and efficiency, at the moment when that efficiency was most required. The petitioners stated to him a fact so strong, so simple, and so strikingly illustrative of this view of the subject, that he was induced to mention it to their Lordships. Some of the principal of these manufacturing establishments had consigned a considerable quantity of cloth to the United States. They sent these consignments upon limited credit, to be paid for at a fixed time, When that time arrived, the disorder of the monetary system in the United States was such, that it was impossible for the parties to effect a money payment, and the agents informed these gentlemen that the consignees could not give money for the goods, but they could procure and send corn. But such was the state of the Corn-law, such was the state of the averages at that time, and such the uncertainty which prevailed in the corn-trade, it was impossible for these persons to venture to take the corn, or to feel any sort of confidence that the corn, if taken, could be advantageously disposed of, and from that circumstance, the distress which prevailed was aggravated, and pauperism was increased. And such was the case among the 70,000 or 80,000 persons who were dependent upon these petitioners. It had been said, that one cause of the decline of trade in the West of England was the withdrawal of the orders by the East-India Company; but the article purchased by the East-India Company was principally manufactured in Devonshire; whereas this petition referred to the declining state of trade in the west of England generally, and was not confined to the particular species of manufacture which the East India Company used to buy. The third proposition which the petitioners took up certainly was one calculated to attract the attention of their Lordships. It was, perhaps, the first time—certainly it was a very remarkable and rare occurrence, as compared with petitions from manufacturers of former periods—that a body of manufacturers should petition their Lordships to repeal all prohibitory duties and all monopoly protections which were not intended to be 137 levied for the purposes of revenue. This might, at least, be allowed to be a striking and unanswerable proof of the deep confidence which they felt in the truth of the allegations which they made. He trusted, indeed, that if any change was to take place in the law upon this subject. It would not be confined to the Corn-law, for the felt that the landed interest of this country, if a change did take place in that law, would be most cruelly and unjustly treated if they were not relieved from any monopoly in other quarters, from which they suffered, and if the great and abundant supplies which the markets of the world furnished were not left open to them, at a time when they were called upon, and justly called upon, to give up their own monopoly. It gave him great satisfaction that this petition, expressing the sentiments of these manufacturers, who were so deeply interested in the welfare of trade, was presented at a more auspicious moment than it could have been a short time ago. He perceived symptoms that the Corn-laws were about to follow the fate of the laws formerly affecting the woollen trade. Some people who once had held and vaunted the opinion that the Corn-laws were the bulwark of their prosperity, were now beginning to come round to the notion that they were not so absolutely indispensable; while others thought that almost any alteration of them would be for the benefit of the community. Some openly and avowedly held this doctrine, and others were silently giving way and abandoning a system to which they had long obstinately adhered. To what extent the intended alterations might go, he was not prepared to say, and future opportunities would occur for discussing the subject. Whatever duty might be allowed to remain, the petitioners hoped that if any it would be a fixed duty in order to avoid injurious fluctuations. The petition had been agreed to at a meeting of the manufacturers of Gloucester, Wilts, and Somersetshire, and only one or two persons dissented from its prayer.
On the question that the petition do lie upon the table,
Lord Broughamagreed that it was rare for persons engaged in manufactures to petition against anything like protecting duties; but there was one remarkable exception, and that was when he (Lord Brougham) laid upon the table a petition from persons authorised by all the great manufacturing bodies in the kingdom. They prayed the repeal of every duty 138 levied under the pretence of protection. He perceived from the petition just presented that the petitioners were not in favour of a fixed duty on corn.
§ The Marquess of Lansdowneobserved that the petitioners were opposed to any duty on corn but what might be necessary as a measure of revenue.
Lord Broughamsaid, that in that case the petitioners were for a direct bread-tax—a tax on bread for the sake of the revenue; on that point he was utterly at variance with them.
§ The Marquess of Lansdowneadded, that the petitioners were for only such a duty on corn as was necessary for the purposes of revenue. They felt that the trade in corn ought not to be exempted from burdens to which other trades were liable.
Lord Broughamremarked, that though the petitioners did not call it a bread-tax, it was such, in fact, if preserved only for the sake of the revenue.
§ The Marquess of Lansdownesaid, that they did not wish for any such duty, but that they were willing to submit to it.
§ Lord Ashburtonremarked, that the subjects introduced by the noble Marquess were so important that it was impossible to discuss them with all the advantage that became them on the mere presentation of a petition. The question of free trade (continued the noble Lord), the question whether any portion of the distress was owing to the Corn-laws, in part, as described by the petitioners; and the question whether any portion of it sprung from some derangement in the monetary system, would, each of them, probably be sufficient for the discussion of an evening. He could not, however, hear such statements as those made by the petitioners without entering his protest against the conclusions to which they had come. He entertained no doubt whatever of the existence of great distress prevailing among the woollen manufacturers; he had no doubt that it was severe among that class of persons; but he doubted whether there was not some exaggeration in the statement that the number of looms which had been employed in the particular district, being 3,000, had fallen off to 1,500, that being about one-half. If this were, however, so, it was pretty clear that such a declension must be owing to something more than the petitioners had described. There must be, he was induced to believe, something in the local position of those manufactories which placed them in a disadvantageous position. The decline, 139 too, had not taken place suddenly, but somewhat gradually; and it was the nature of manufactures to undergo a change. It had been well observed on a former occasion by a noble Viscount opposite, when distress was complained of as applying to a particular body of manufacturers—the noble Viscount said it was the penalty which was frequently paid for that species of wealth. It was the common course of things that one manufacturer in one place drove out another manufacturer in another. One district often superseded another in manufactures. Their Lordships heard of the distress of the manufacturing population one day, and the distress of the agricultural population another. He must protest, therefore, against the principle of one body of petitioners suggesting a remedy for their own relief, at the expense of other portions of the community. This was a species of doctrine to which he strongly objected, and he would urge their Lordships not to yield to it. As a general principle, change per se in the making of laws was a great evil. In saying this, however, he did not mean to say, that no change should take place; but then he would assert that no change in the laws affecting the interest of the great body of the people ought to be made, except under the conviction that such change was most desirable, and was a change for the better. The legislature ought not to be called upon to interfere to alter or vary the laws on light grounds, or because a partial evil existed, or because one branch of commerce was in a declining state. There was a good deal of fallacy often mixed up in these matters. One instance of a false conclusion the petitioners had fallen into he begged to remind their lordships of. It had been suggested as a remedy by the petitioners, that were the Corn-laws abolished they would be benefited in that way. It was stated, that owing to some derangement in the monetary system in the United States of America, and such a derangement no doubt had existed, the manufacturer in England would not be paid for the goods which he had sent thither. But, the correspondent added, that if there were a free trade in corn he would pay that way by sending corn instead of money. How was this to be accomplished he begged to inquire? Most likely the party who had made that assertion was engaged in the woollen trade in New York, or some other city, and of course he was not a dealer in corn. He must have his corn to 140 buy, and, consequently, must pay for it in money. Now with that same money he might have paid for the manufactured goods. Surely, he might have remitted it to England. He must say he was surprised to find his noble Friend was to be deceived by a fallacy like this. He objected to discussions on such matters taking place night after night, because he was persuaded that they were calculated to mislead the country. He could not, however, hear such opinions as those broached by the petitioners without protesting against them. As regarded himself, their Lordships would not be troubled with any observations of his for some time to come. The petitioners seemed to think that the millennium of free trade was about to take place, but they would be disappointed. If the principles of free trade were, however, to be acted upon by all the world, he should be among the first to hail such a prospect. But this was far from being the case; for every year some exclusive system was brought to light as being acted upon, injurious to our commerce, by different countries. Indeed, scarcely a week passed but some part of the world displayed a determination to act upon the restrictive and condemned principles; therefore it was, that he denounced such notions as he had just adverted to. The principle against which he had entered his protest was this, that distress experienced in any one branch of trade, or even in agriculture itself, however important that interest, or however great the number of persons whose labour was absorbed in that pursuit, was no reason, and should be no reason, to induce the Ministry of the period to propose, or the Legislature to adopt, propositions which would upset and shake the whole commercial system of the nation.
Petition laid on the Table.