HL Deb 19 May 1840 vol 54 cc296-314

Though the motion was not pressed to a division, it happily had the effect of calling forth some able speeches, which at once evinced the increased public attention which the subject has attracted, and also tended to increase that attention. But I cannot forbear remarking, that the main objection to the immediate abolition of transportation to a colony, which I had forestalled by Mr. Drummond's suggestion of substituting for Norfolk Island (as a temporary expedient at least) one on our own coasts,—this objection was not supported by any weighty reasons against that suggestion. The only argument adduced, was the supposed tenor with which, to some minds, it is said, a very remote place of exile is invested by the imagination. I have given my reasons for believing this argument to be greatly over-rated, and to be quite insufficient, even if it be not over-rated, to counterbalance the considerations on the opposite side. But as it does seem to weigh much with those on whom the practical decision rests, I will venture to throw out in this place another suggestion, by which advantage may be taken of the feeling in question, for a beneficial purpose, without incurring (as now) the most rev. Prelate might feel assured, that if the subject he had introduced to their Lordships' notice did not attract the deepest attention, it was not on account of the manner in which he had treated it. It, perhaps, did not require all the talent which the most rev. Prelate had exerted to show that vice, wherever it existed, was corrupting, and that crime led to contamination. It was now eight years since the most rev. Prelate's attention had been directed to the subject, yet he hardly seemed to have allowed full credit to the changes effected of late. The transportation committee presented a most able report two years ago, which had led to some of the most useful and important alterations in the system, correcting some of the crying abuses to which the most rev. Prelate had alluded. Many of the evils had been removed by the abolition of assignment. The most rev. Prelate said, that his attention was first drawn to the subject by the alluring accounts sent home by the convicts of their condition. These attractive accounts had ceased to be sent home, and he of late years only knew one instance of a convict sending a flattering description of the place to his relations, and expressing a wish that they should join him. He could assure the most rev. Prelate that transportation was now considered to be really a severe punishment, and it would be a great boon to any person sentenced to transportation to commute his punishment to imprisonment in the Penitentiary. With respect to the corrupting influence of transportation, he begged to observe, that according to the new regulations, no convict would be sent to the settled parts the enormous counterbalancing disadvantages. Let Norfolk Island, or some such remote spot, be made, exclusively, the place of exile to those (a very small proportion of criminals) who are sentenced to transportation for life. Let no others—convicts or free settlers—be located there. And thus you will obtain all the advantages, and avoid (as far as the thing is possible) the disadvantages of a remote penal-establishment. For, 1st. There will be an approach towards a scale of punishments, proportioned to offences, by adding on, in the most heinous cases, whatever terror there may be in remote exile. 2dly. The promiscuous association together of those sentenced to a term (for slighter offences) and for life, will be avoided. 3dly, The dreadful consequences of over- of Van Dieman's Land, There was one most important and grave part of the subject, which the most rev. Prelate had treated lightly. He proposed a resolution for the immediate abolition of the punishment of transportation, but he suggested no substitute. There were many serious and weighty considerations connected with the question of a proper secondary punishment, which must press on the minds of all statesmen, particularly at the present moment, when the current of public opinion was setting forcibly, as he believed usefully, in favour of the gradual abolition of the punishment of death. There were many reasons which rendered the infliction of a secondary punishment at home particularly difficult. He conceived it to be utterly impossible to substitute for the punishment of death any other than a punishment which should last during life. At the same time, it would be repugnant to the feelings of Englishmen to think that any human being was immured within four walls for the whole period of his life; and as little would they endure the substitution of that punishment, usual in some other countries, which consisted in compelling the criminals to work in chains in the streets. Then came the question of penitentiaries. With regard to the expense of this system, he thought the most rev. Prelate had not spoken with his usual clearness. A gentleman who had paid considerable attention to the subject had estimated that the first expense of establishing penitentiaries would be 25,000,000l., and that the expense of maintaining them would be 1,500,000l. He thought this estimate exaggerated, but whelming our Australian Colonies with the discharged convicts,—which, it is truly observed in the Government papers (p. 6), "leaves the main evil of transportation in full vigour"—will be avoided. 4thly. The frightful severity exercised in Norfolk Island might be considerably relaxed, without those ill effects which would, now, follow from such relaxation; because the numbers of the exiles would be so much smaller, and also the remoteness and seclusion of the place of banishment, and its being for life, might be a sufficient terror, without any additional severity of treatment. Such a plan I conceive would be at least a manifest and great improvement on the present or proposed course; and would be open to none of the objections, as far as I can see, which have been urged against any of the other suggestions of the -opponents of transportation. he alluded to it for the purpose of showing that the expense had been calculated at a much higher amount than the most rev. Prelate seemed disposed to put it at. But another more important consideration was, that relating to the health of the prisoners. A system of separate confinement could not be adopted, unless it was made rigid, and the result of his inquiries induced him to entertain considerable doubt as to the effect of such a system in this climate. In the Penitentiary at Mill-bank soldiers were confined; but their confinement was necessarily short, and he was informed by a medical gentleman that their health there was not only as good as the health of soldiers in any other prison, but as good as that of soldiers when unconfined. But this was by no means the case with respect to those who suffered confinement for a considerable time; and it appeared that the health of the prisoners broke down after a certain period. Their Lordships were called upon by this resolution not to adopt a more gradual change, but immediately and finally to abolish the whole system of transportation. But it was physically impossible, even if the necessary funds were at hand, to provide adequate accommodation in the gaols, hulks, and penitentiaries at home for the convicts now in the course of justice. During the last ten years there had been condemned to transportation 41,300 convicts, of which 35,937 had been actually transported, and 400 upon an average having completed their term were annually set at liberty. For the next ten years it was calculated there would be 38,000 for Great Britain, and about 10,000 for Ireland. During the present year 1,390 had been condemned to various periods of transportation; the remaining months of the year would give an addition of 2,550, and there were at present confined in the hulks 3,008, in the gaols 1,000, and in the penitentiary 300; in all, little short of 7,000, while the utmost additional accommodation that could be provided would be for only 1,112. The new model prison would not be finished for two years, but the accommodation would even then be only increased to the extent of 500. It would be impossible, as he had already stated, exactly to calculate the great increase of expense which must result from the establishment of that system of penitentiaries as recommended by the most rev. Prelate; but in order to give their Lordships some faint idea of it, he might be allowed to state, that in consequence of the regulation which their Lordships had adopted last year, in the propriety of which he entirely concurred, that prisoners should no longer be employed in the service of the prisons, the expense of turnkeys, matrons, and other officers for the three metropolitan gaols, Coldbath-fields, Clerkenwell, and Tothill-fields, instead of 8,000l., as formerly, now amounted to 15,000l. The tendency of the public mind, too, was decidedly in favour of the abrogation of capital punishments; and he had always supported measures for the amelioration of the penal code; but if transportation were abolished—above all, if such a change as that now recommended were rashly adopted, he very much feared it would be impossible to substitute another secondary punishment, adequate to the protection of property which the circumstances of the country would enable them to inflict. The most rev. Prelate had done most essential service in calling the attention of their Lordships to this important subject, and he should be at all times most anxious to listen to any means that could be suggested to mitigate the evils of the present system. With all respect, therefore, for the most rev. Prelate, and even gratitude for his meritorious exertions in the cause of philanthropy, he would not call upon their Lordships to give a direct negative to the motion, but content himself with moving the previous question.

The Bishop of Exeter

considered the most rev. Prelate entitled to the thanks of Parliament, for bringing this subject under the attention of their Lordships. There was no one subject he knew of, on which the energies of that great mind could have been more worthily employed, than in tracing the moral evils of transportation, and endeavouring to provide for them an effectual remedy. Yet the most rev. Prelate must forgive him, if he said, that with all gratitude for his services in this matter, there was one important circumstance he desiderated. The most rev. Prelate, in addressing himself to the evils of transportation in general, confined his views almost entirely to the effects it had produced in the colony of New South Wales. He seemed to suppose that transportation could only be conducted as it had been by this country since 1787. That, he must frankly say, was not so extensive a view of the subject as he should have expected from the most rev. Prelate. The evils which had resulted from the system adopted in 1787, had continued with but little improvement till within the last twelve or fourteen years, had been most enormous; but were these consequences necessary to transportation? The system adopted in 1787, was carried out in the most absurd manner, convicts being employed to colonize a country. It was a system so sure to fail, that one's only amazement was, that the great intellects then in the Government of the country should ever have ventured upon it. But did it necessarily follow, if a system of colonization by free emigrants had accompanied, or rather preceded, penal transportation, that the same consequences would have ensued? In that case, had due attention been paid to the moral and religious care of the convicts, a very different result would, no doubt, have taken place. What were the facts with respect to New South Wales? We sent out 1,200 convicts at once, and what steps had been taken to insure their moral and religious instruction? It was notorious there was not even a thought of sending out a single chaplain to give them spiritual instruction when cast on those desolate shores. Surely that was no necessary part of the punishment of transportation. The benevolent men who interfered—Wilberforce, Bishop Porteus, and others—pressed upon Government, the necessity of taking some measures to insure the religious instruction of the convicts, and with difficulty induced them to allow one solitary chaplain to accompany the expedition. For the first seven years one chaplain only was employed for the spiritual care of those wretched persons. The next seven years two were sent; but, as if that were too many, the third seven years only one chaplain was sent. There was something so shocking in this, that, as an Englishman, he should blush for his country if he could think for a moment, it was the result of indifference to the moral and spiritual welfare of those unhappy but guilty persons. The real cause, he believed, was, that at the time the whole energies of the Government of the country were employed in that great contest which lasted so long, and which engrossed the whole attention of those who conducted it. The colonization of New South Wales, and even the correction of convicts, were held to be trifles in comparison to that important struggle. But that struggle being over, he wished there had been some appearances of attention to the duty of the country in this particular. Such, however, was not the case. Many, many years elapsed, before anything like due regard was paid to this subject, and the necessity that those sent out as convicts should have the means of reformation. He had no doubt he should surprise some of their Lordships when he told them, that with 4,000 convicts, in what were called iron gangs in the gaols of New South Wales, not one single person was appointed by Government as chaplain. Was it, then, to be wondered at that such a harvest of crime should have been the result of such a state of things? In Sydney, Government gave 50l. a-year to the rev. W. Cowper for looking after the gaol; but, as minister of St. Phillip's parish, he had also the care of 5,000 or 6,000 souls to attend to. The sum of 50l. was also given to a Roman Catholic chaplain. In the neighbourhood of Sydney, the iron gangs had no other sort of spiritual superintendence. Another clergyman, to be sure, who had gone out to Sydney without any specific employment, had been temporarily engaged by the Bishop of Australia. That, however, was only temporary, and would only last till a permanent appointment was made. The evil was so great, that strong representations had been made to the Government at home, by persons whose representations were entitled to the greatest weight. In June 1837, representations were made from the judges of the colony, deploring the want which existed of spiritual instruction. Their Lordships, no doubt, expected to hear that the representations proceeding from so high an authority, had met with immediate and respectful attention, and that if nothing had been done at the moment, it was only because persons could not be immediately found to dispense the spiritual instruction of which there was so much need. Their Lordships would of course conclude that if no immediate measures were adopted promises of instant attention had been given, and that the venerable judges had been assured that the Government was deeply indebted to them for having pointed out the evil which existed. Not so, however, the year 1838 passed away without any answer having been returned, and the year 1839 had also passed away in the same manner without answer. Either the governor of the colony, if he had made no representations to the Government at home, or the Government at home if it had received information of the evil from the highest authority without ever noticing the communication, had incurred a heavy responsibility. Where the fault lay he knew not, but he hoped their Lordships would have the matter explained to them by some Member of her Majesty's Government. He admitted with the noble Marquess the Secretary for the Home Department, that while all must honour the motives by which the most rev. Prelate was actuated in bringing forward this subject, the most rev. Prelate's proposal that transportation should cease absolutely, finally, and immediately, must be considered as asking rather more than the grounds which had been stated would warrant. He (the Bishop of Exeter) would not enter into a discussion upon the general question; he wished merely to advert to the representations that had been made by the most rev. Prelate as to the state of morals prevailing in New South Wales; and, indeed, but for those representations he (the Bishop of Exeter) should Dot have troubled their Lordships on the present occasion. The most rev. Prelate was, of course, convinced of the accuracy of the statements which he had made, and under such an impression, that he should have felt that holy indignation which he had expressed that evening, could occasion no surprise to their Lordships; it would have been a matter of surprise if the most rev. Prelate could have expressed himself with coldness, believing, as he did the truth of those statements. But unless he (the Bishop of Exeter) was grossly misinformed, the real facts of the case were exceedingly different from the account given by the most rev. Prelate. The most rev. Prelate spoke of the colony of New South Wales as a nation of criminals and executioners, and as the most corrupt population that the sun ever shone upon. Was that the real state of things? Were there no authorities on the other side of the question? It might be said that statements proceeding from the colonies themselves would be partial, but still there were functionaries in those colonies who could not be induced by partiality to make a false statement of facts passing under their own eyes. What account did the Bishop of Australia give of the state of morals in the colonies? The Bishop stated in his report of the Diocesan Committee, January 23, 1837. This spirit (regard for the interest of religion) is not confined to a single district, but I have found it pervading all which I have visited with a degree of unanimity as remarkable as it is gratifying. The circumstance of so many churches being at one and the same time in progress in such distant parts of the colony is unparalleled, so far as my observation extends, in any country containing a tenfold population; and the amount of subscriptions raised in every such instance, without reserve or difficulty, proves how becoming a sense is generally entertained by the settlers of their duty to make a liberal offering to the service of God in acknowledgment of the bounties He has bestowed upon them. In addition to this I cannot forbear to observe, that having held confirmations in every part of the colony which I have visited, where a becoming place for the celebration of that rite could be provided, the attendance, with perhaps one single exception, has been numerous and gratifying beyond my expectation. The appearance and demeanour of the young persons who have come forward on these occasions—their unaffected seriousness, their evident marks of attachment to the Church and its ordinances, and the piety with which they have pledged themselves to fulfil the solemn engagement which they undertook in my presence, have filled with satisfaction and hope, not my heart alone, but the breasts of all who truly desire the welfare of this colony, and whose persuasion is, that it can be secured only through the establishment of true holiness and righteousness among its inhabitants. This then was the solemn attestation of the Bishop of Australia addressed to his clergy. Judge Burton, who had published a work upon the state of religion and education in New South Wales, was another authority to the same effect. But the statement did not rest merely upon the opinions of the Bishop of Australia or judge Burton, but was proved by facts altogether at variance with the information upon which the most rev. Prelate proceeded. While the criminals in the whole colony convicted before Mr. Justice Burton was nearly 900, the number of native colonists convicted before him in six years was only thirty. Supposing the number convicted before the other two judges to be equal to the former, ninety of the native colonists only were convicted in four years. Yet this portion of the population was about 30,000; therefore, only 1 in 2,000 of them annually was convicted of crime. Was this a very de- praved state of morals? If it were he should be very sorry, for England was almost incalculably worse, the proportion in England being one in every 800. The number of convictions in England during the last year was, he believed, 17,000, and taking the population at 14,000,000, there would result the proportion which he had stated, of one in 800. Yet New South Wales, where the degree of crime was not half so great, was to be called the most abandoned country which the sun ever shone upon. The most rev. Prelate had said, that the means which had been taken to improve the state of these colonies had proved ineffective, and he (the Bishop of Exeter) was ready to agree that one expedient which had been resorted to had utterly failed—he meant the expedient of sending over a ship load of women. It had been stated that the women who had been sent were respectable persons, and had certificates to that effect from the ministers of their respective parishes. If this were true, he regretted that the ministers of those parishes had been so easy in granting certificates, for he had heard from one who had been an eye-witness of the conduct of these women at the Cape, that anything more horrible could not be conceived; that their vices were perfectly notorious, and that several persons were assailed by them in language too shocking and disgusting to be described, The most rev. Prelate had said that public opinion in these colonies was on the side of vice. That was a strange statement; for really all the opinions given by the best authorities led to precisely the opposite conclusion, and showed that what might be expected to be the case actually took place in the colonies. In a country consisting of a population composed of such different classes as those of which society was composed in those colonies, it was natural to imagine that there would be a greater jealousy and a higher tone of morality among the respectable part of the people rather than that public opinion would be on the side of vice; and there was evidence that such was actually the state of things. The most rev. Prelate had been misinformed when he was told that the most respectable inhabitants of the colonies wished the system of transportation to be put an end to. What was the fact? He would read to their Lordships an extract from the votes and proceedings of the Legislative Coun- cil (No. 15), dated July 17, 1838, relative to the petition for inquiry into the systems of transportation and assignment, unanimously agreed to, there being present, the Governor, the Chief Justice, the Bishop, and other members:— Resolved, that in the opinion of this council, the great extension which has latterly been afforded of moral and religious instruction, the classification which may in future be made in the numerous gaols now in progress of erection upon the most approved principles of inspection and separation, the more effectual punishment and classification of offenders in ironed gangs, according to their improved system of management, the numerous free emigrants now eligible as the assignees of convicts, and the accumulated experience of half a century, form a combination of circumstances which renders the colony better adapted at the present than at any former period to carry into effect the praiseworthy intentions of the first founders of the system of transportation and assignment, which had no less for its object reformation of character than a just infliction of punishment. Resolved. That in the opinion of this council, no system of penal discipline or secondary punishment will be found, at once so cheap, so effective, and so reformatory, as that of well regulated assignment, the good conduct of the convict, and his continuance at labour being so obviously the interest of the assignee, whilst the partial solitude and privations incidental to a pastoral or agricultural life in the remote districts of the colony (which may be made the universal employment of convicts), by effectually breaking a connection with companions and habits of vice, is better calculated than any other system to produce moral reformation, when accompanied by adequate religious instruction. He need not call the attention of their Lordships to the respectability of the individuals who composed the Legislative Council, but he must say that this document was altogether inconsistent with the information which had been given to the most rev. Prelate as to the sentiments entertained by the respectable inhabitants of the colony. There was one more particular of great moment in the consideration of this subject, and that was the course taken by her Majesty's Government in diminishing the assistance which was afforded to free emigration. A few years ago, when a noble Earl, not now in his place (the Earl of Ripon), presided over the Colonial Department, Lord Howick, by his direction, wrote a letter to the Secretary of the Treasury, in which were the following words:— Lord Goderich is of opinion that it would not be wise so to burden the colony as to check the progress of improvement and the development of its resources for the sake of a small immediate saving to this country; and he would more especially call the attention of their Lordships to the impolicy of applying to the ordinary current expenses of the colony that portion of the territorial revenue which arises from the sale of land. The funds derived from this source should be looked upon, not as forming a part of the income of the colony and available for the purpose of meeting its annual expenses, but as capital, which should not be permanently sunk, but invested so as to produce a profitable return. Here, then, was the principle laid down of employing the produce of the sale of land in the encouragement of free emigration. Now, what had been the course actually pursued? Why, it appeared, that in ten years, from 1831 to 1840 inclusive, 800,000l. would have been invested in land, while the expenditure of the Government on account of emigration, could not have amounted to 400,000l. Some of their Lordships might think this a large sum to be so employed, but he thought the principle laid down by the noble Earl was a wise one, and that the whole of the proceeds ought to be so applied. This was not so much a question of expediency as of justice, for the expenses which pressed most heavily upon these colonies, were the judicial and civil charges arising from their convict burden, and were consequently incurred in enabling us to get rid of our inhabitants. The population of New South Wales, which hardly exceeded 100,000 souls, paid indirectly, by means of customs and other modes no less a sum than 240,000l. per annum. It was no more than just that the Imperial Government should pay the expenses of the police, which was rendered necessary by its own system. He would not detain their Lordships further than by merely expressing a hope that means would be taken for supplying adequate spiritual instruction to those unhappy beings who stood so much in need of spiritual comfort and consolation.

The Earl of Wicklow

said, this was a subject of great importance, and one, the difficulties of which were much increased by the contariety of opinions that had been expressed upon it. After having perused, with all the attention he was able to give to it, the evidence that was taken be- fore the committee of the House of Commons, it was with great surprise he had heard the statements which had just been made by the right rev. Prelate, because he could not understand how a committee which sat for so long a period, and heard such a variety of evidence, could have formed an opinion so directly against that of the right rev. Prelate. He must also say, that it appeared strange to him, that the opinion expressed on this subject by the Bishop of Australia should be so different as it seemed to be from that of several of the governors and judges of the colony. The noble Marquess opposite had afforded no clue whatever to the extent of improvement that had already taken place, or that was in contemplation. True, he had stated, that one part of the former system of transportation, namely, that of assignment, had been abolished, as the committee of the House of Commons had strongly recommended, but they had not vet had any information, and he imagined the noble Marquess was not aware of any, as to the result of that alteration. If, however, the committee had recommended the change on the ground of economy, most completely was that end destroyed by the abolition of assignment, for it was stated by Sir George Arthur, one of the witnesses who was examined before the committee, that the expense of the convicts under the system of assignment was about 4l.. per head, but that under any other system it would amount to 14l. He should like also to know from the noble Marquess, whether the Government had already adopted the suggestions of Lord John Russell in his remarks on the evidence taken before the committee. If they had, then he said, that the way in which future transportation was to be conducted was entirely changed, and the expense would be increased to an extent which he believed this country would be little able to endure. If he understood the proposition of the noble Lord, it was, that not only the system of assignment should be abolished, but that the system of transportation either to New South Wales or Van Dieman's Land should be put an end to. The noble Lord proposed also to transport convicts in the first instance to Norfolk Island, or Tasman's Peninsula, those being the places to which convicts from New South Wales were now sent; but he admitted, that there was this defect in the proposition, that it left the main evil of transportation in full vigour, for at the end of their transportation, the expense being too great for their return to England, the convicts would flock to the other Australian colonies, rendering them more foul then they now were. That was the proposition of the noble Lord, and it therefore appeared to him, that at this moment the Government, although thay opposed the motion of the most rev. Prelate, were not yet prepared to state what system should be adopted in future. The present expense of conveying criminals to New South Wales and Van Dieman's Land was about 28l. per head, and the consequent expense on their arrival there was at least 54l. more, making it in all an expense of 82l. Now, that expense was to be increased under the alteration of the system which the noble Marquess had stated had taken place. With such an expense as that, it became absolutely necessary for them to include it in the consideration of the subject. As he had understood the noble Marquess, and Lord John Russell, it was in contemplation eventually to adopt pretty much the same system as that proposed by the most rev. Prelate. It was, therefore, now only a question of time. But if so, all that had been stated by the right rev. Prelate went for nothing, because it was in direct opposition to the principle which he had been advocating. The right rev. Prelate had said, that the most rev. Prelate had stated it as the opinion of all the good men in the colony, that the system ought to be discontinued, but that it should be considered, that that opinion was not given with reference to the morality or immorality of the colony, but with respect to their own individual interests. And, according to the statement of the right rev. Prelate, he wished for a continuation of the system; and indeed went further, for he wished also for the system of assignment which had been abolished. Now, he must say, he could not think that the recommendation of those to whom the right rev. Prelate had alluded ought to have much weight. But let their opinions be as different as they might on this subject, it was impossible for the population now in New South Wales and Van Die-man's Land not to be one of the grossest immorality, for, independent of the circumstances stated by the right rev. Prelate there was an enormous population comprised of felons or emancipated felons. It was impossible, too, that there should not be a system of the grossest vice and immorality, considering the great disproportion there was of the sexes, according to the statement of the right rev. Prelate, for it appeared, that in the towns, the proportion of men to women was as five to two, in the agricultural districts as seven to two, and in the most distant parts of the country as seventeen to one. That must produce evils of the worst kind, and if so with regard to the male population, what must be its effect with regard to the women who were transported to the distant parts of the country? That state of things ought not to be allowed to continue, there should be a change, and it was the duty of the Government of this country, when these matters were brought to their notice, to do all in their power to remove those evils. His most rev. Friend, in using the word "immediate," did not mean to say, that transportation in a moment should cease in every part of the world, but that it should be incumbent on that House to express its feeling, that the present system should be put an end to, and such other system adopted as might be thought necessary. He would suggest, that the islands of Bermuda should be made use of as a place of transportation until penitentiaries were established in such parts ns the Government might determine on. The question really was, whether the suggestion of the committee was to be attended to or not? If it were not, then the Government were bound to say so, and to say why they were not satisfied with it; and it was their duty to let the country know what system was in future to be pursued with respect to transportation.

The Bishop of Exeter

explained. It was very far from the opinion he had expressed that transportation to New South Wales should go on. He distinctly avoided giving that opinion, but he certainly had not expressed a contrary opinion: for, surrounded as the question was with difficulties, he was not yet competent to form an opinion. What he said, was, that in his opinion, there might be a better system of transportation adopted, which might accompany or be subsidiary to colonization.

The Bishop of Norwich

said, he must express his satisfaction and gratitude to the most rev. Prelate for having brought this most important, and he might say, most religious subject, before their Lordships. And he also felt thankful to the noble Marquess for the statement he had made, because it had shown the extreme interest the noble Marquess took in the colony, and the anxiety there was in his mind to promote its welfare and renovation by every means in his power. With respect to transportation, he doubted very much whether any country, under any circumstances whatever, had a right to scatter and disseminate over the wide world the scum and refuse of its population. It might be said, that they were carried to distant parts where there were none but barbarian tribes; but was it right that they should make those tribes worse, and inoculate them with the vices and immorality of their own country? He doubted the policy of any country doing that. But no matter; for transportation was, nevertheless, carried on. He differed, however, from the most rev. Prelate as to its immediate abolition. He thought it could not be immediately. But he looked on this as the dawn of better things, as the opening of a desirable change, and that in a very short time, transportation would cease. He wished that some noble Lords, who appeared not to be as fully sensible as facts would warrant them in being of the great value of early education, would take the trouble to observe the civilizing and Christianizing effects produced upon the children of the poor in the union houses. To him it appeared that one of the great advantages arising from the total abolition of transportation would be that such a change must have the effect of turning the minds of the responsible advisers of the Crown to the necessity of a soundman effective, and an extended system of early education. It must be evident to any man of the least reflection that it was impossible to improve the population of New South Wales so long as there existed within that territory such an accumulation of sin and crime as must necessarily prevail in a penal settlement. How could virtue or piety flourish in a condition of society such as prevailed in a country to which the worst and most hardened criminals were sent? But he hoped it was not yet too late to stop the course in which our management of secondary punishments had unhappily involved us, and he hoped, that he might yet see a very material improvement effected.

The Marquess of Lansdowne

said, that the noble Earl opposite appeared to think, that there was some inconsistency in his noble Friend's saying that there had been an inconvenient accumulation of convicts in some parts of New Holland, while, at the same time, he intimated the intention of her Majesty's Government to confine and limit transportation to those particular parts. Now, the inconsistency was merely apparent, and not real; for, though it was intended to limit transportation principally to Norfolk Island and Tasman's Peninsula, yet, on the whole, every effort would be made to diminish the aggregate |amount of transportation and in that manner, lighten the pressure upon those particular places. He believed, that he correctly represented the sentiments of his noble Friend when he stated that it was intended to advise her Majesty to discontinue transportation for life in a great many cases, as means and opportunity permitted. It was intended gradually to diminish the number of transports until they were brought within such limits as would insure perfect accommodation at the point to which they were sent, He fully agreed with those who thought that the Govern-of this country should do all in their power to encourage judicious emigration to New South Wales; it was their duty to do all in their power to repair the injury which the presence of a penal settlement must of necessity inflict upon a new state of society like that which existed in Australia. He agreed, that it was the duty of the Government to stimulate emigration amongst persons of a superior class, but he thought it right briefly to notice the causes which in some degree at present retarded the measures that, under other circumstances, it would be their duty to adopt. The House was aware, that the funds arising from the sale of lands were to be applied to the encouragement of emigration; but so strong was the indisposition of the colonists to defray, not the new, but the old expenses of the colony, that the Government found it necessary to defray those expenses out of the fund which under a different state of things would have been applicable to the great and important object of inducing respectable persons to settle in Australia. It had been found impossible to provide for the usual demands of the public service in those colonies without imposing new taxes, and thence the fund created by the sale of land had been exposed to undue encroachment. Neither the administration of justice nor the interests of religion could have been maintained, had not the fund in question been rendered available. There could not be a second opinion as to the necessity of providing religious instruction for a colony circumstanced as New South Wales had for some time been, and at first, perhaps, due precautions had not been taken, but of late he rejoiced to say, that successive Governments had done much to provide religious instruction in that part of her Majesty's dominions. Upon the general question he should say, that he agreed with the most rev. Prelate, and with the report of the House of Commons in thinking that it was highly desirable to apply in many cases some other punishment in lieu of transportation. It was the intention of her Majesty's Government to adhere as closely as they could to the recommendation given by the committee, but they could not pledge themselves to the immediate or the total abolition of the practice. The House must recollect, that from a practice in which the frequency of capital punishments were carried to excess, they had recently adopted a much more mild, humane, and beneficial course. Capital punishment had now become rare, at least comparatively infrequent, and it, therefore, became the more difficult and unsafe to part with the power of transportation for life; they could not part with a punishment which, by reason of the great distance at which it was inflicted, as well as from other causes, operated most powerfully upon the feelings and imaginations of men. That which was unknown naturally presented itself to the excited mind of the criminal in an exaggerated form. It was said, that criminals might be more economically employed upon public works at home than in a distant colony; but how much better was it that when their term of punishment expired they should find themselves in a community where labour was in demand, than in a highly civilized state of society, where there was a surplus population and the prices of labour comparatively low? Surely the convict who had conducted himself well in New South Wales would find himself in a much better condition on being released than on coming out of a penitentiary at home. He had heard the discussion of that night with great satisfaction—he hoped that it would have the effect of enlightening the public, but he at the same time hoped that nothing would be done to fetter the Executive, or to interfere with the due execution of the laws.

The Bishop of Exeter

said, that to several of the gaol and iron gangs, perhaps to all, some spiritual instruction was offered, but that it was given most inefficiently—namely, by employing in this office only three clergymen, who had other and populous charges. None of them had a chaplain.

The Archbishop of Dublin replied.*

The previous question, that this question be now put, was then put, and negatived without a division; and their Lordships adjourned at a quarter past ten until Thursday.