The Earl of Rodenwas perfectly aware of the great importance of the subject to be brought under the consideration of their Lordships this evening by his noble Friend near him. He, therefore, assured 762 their Lordships, that be did not mean to claim their attention for more than five minutes; but he felt it to be his imperative duty to trespass on the noble Marquess opposite, while he requested an answer to certain questions which he should presently state. He thought, it was unnecessary to go at any length into observations on the state of Ireland, the more especially as it was his intention in a short time, to bring the state of that most unhappy country formally before their Lordships. But he owed it to himself—he owed it to those amongst whom he lived and whom he loved—he owed it to all classes of his fellow subjects in Ireland, to make some inquiries concerning a most interesting and melancholy subject as early as possible. He felt, that he should be guilty of a very great dereliction of his duty were he to allow even one day to pass, after seeing the noble Marquess take his place in that House, without putting a question to him on the subject of the awful circumstance which had lately happened in Ireland, then under the government of the noble Marquess. He should divide his subject into three queries; and he hoped the noble Marquess would feel it to be his duty to give an answer to each of them, and that his answers would be satisfactory to the House. He wished, then, to know, whether any information had been given to her Majesty's Government in Ireland likely to lead to the detection of the murderer of the Earl of Norbury; whether any persons were in custody charged with that crime; and whether the noble Marquess had any reason to expect, that that alarming conspiracy against life and property in Ireland, from which this tragic event, as well as many others similar to it, had emanated, was likely to be discovered and suppressed? Ale asked these questions of the noble Marquess, because he knew the deep interest which was taken in this country, as well as in Ireland with reference to the state of that part of her Majesty's dominions; and he sincerely hoped, that the noble Marquess would be able to give a satisfactory reply to all of them; because it was no small satisfaction to him, to know, that in all parts of England a very large portion of the community felt most deeply for the unhappy state of his country, and for the cruel persecution which was set on foot against her Majesty's Protestant subjects there, He now asked 763 the noble Marquess those questions, and he trusted, that the noble Marquess would be kind enough to answer him.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, the noble Earl opposite, when he last night gave notice of his intention to put a question to him, intimated, that he was anxious in doing so, to manifest all courtesy towards him. Undoubtedly on all occasions when Irish affairs had been mentioned in that House, the noble Earl had never, in the slightest degree, given him any occasion to complain of want of courtesy, or of not having given the fullest intimation of his intention. He understood now, that the noble Earl was looking forward to the day when he should be able to bring before their Lordships the motion of which the noble Earl had given notice—which he hoped would not be far distant—and in the interim the noble Earl felt it to be his duty to ask these questions. As to the second question of the noble Earl, he was ready, but only so far as his own information went, to give an answer in the affirmative. At the time he left Ireland there were three persons in custody—two from that part of the country, and another who had been arrested in a very remote district, upon suspicion of having been concerned in the murder. He had not heard what progress had been made in the investigation with respect to the share which those persons might have had in that lamentable and mysterious event. He was sure, that the noble Earl and the House would see, that it was impossible, that be should answer the first question—namely, what information there was, or how far it was likely, that means would be supplied for arriving at a just conclusion. With regard to the third question, which he understood to relate to a conspiracy, he had formerly had an opportunity of stating to then oble Earl, that the Government, at the head of which he had lately been, had always been ready to receive, and were most anxious to examine, any evidence tendered to them of the existence of any conspiracy. He was, however, far from admitting, that this deplorable murder had originated in any such conspiracy. [Hear, hear, from a noble Lord.] The noble Lord opposite cried hear, hear, but he was only answering, to the best of his ability, the question of the noble Earl. He could assure their Lordships that he looked forward with great anxiety to the time when 764 he should be able to meet the noble Lord opposite with reference to a resolution which had been passed at a meeting at which the noble Lord was present. He should, on this occasion, only say, that any charge contained in that resolution he indignantly repudiated. He challenged a discussion of the subject, and looked forward anxiously to the period when the subject should be regularly introduced.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, if the noble Earl had previously stated to him the nature of his question, he might have been able to make further inquiry on the subject. His information at present only extended to the time when he left Ireland. At that period three persons were in custody, but he did not know how the investigation proceeded. He had strong hopes however, that it would be successful in detecting the offenders.
The Earl of Rodenwas extremely sorry to feel himself called on to make one or two observations on what had fallen from the noble Marquess. The noble Marquess said, he did not believe that there existed any such conspiracy. Now, he would ask the noble Marquess whether he had not received information from his own people that a conspiracy, on the riband system, or some other system, or under some other name, had spread itself through Ireland to a very large extent? Whatsoever might be the opinion of the noble Marquess on the subject, or whatsoever he might state with respect to it, he placed greater reliance on the judgment of others. He would, for instance, mention a venerable judge, who was called the other day to preside at the special commission. He had stated positively, that many of the crimes likely to be brought before that special commission were crimes connected with conspiracy. He should also advert to the resolutions sent to the noble Marquess by twenty one magistrates of the county of Westmeath—resolutions which were worthy of the magistrates, and worthy of the serious attention of their Lordships. In those resolutions the magistrates stated their conviction that a conspiracy existed (which included a great part of that county) against Her Majesty's loyal subjects.
The Marquess of NormanbyIf the noble Earl desired it, he was ready, however inconvenient it might be, to go into 765 the subject then. He was in the hands of the House; but the noble Earl, it should be observed, had only given notice of his intention to ask certain questions.
Lord Broughamwas of opinion, that a question of so much interest ought not to be introduced in this manner. It was for this reason—it was on account of the paramount importance of the subject—it, was because this was a question from which Parliament could not shrink, that the noble Earl opposite, whose motives he respected, should see the propriety of not bringing it forward in this way. It was not fair to his noble Friend near him—it was not fair to the noble Earl himself—to bring such a question forward for consideration in this accidental and incidental manner. Let it be brought forward in a regular and formal shape, and their Lordships would apply to it their grave and serious attention.
Lord Broughamthe noble Earl stated that he would ask certain questions, which he has asked, and he has, moreover, spoken twice on this occasion.
§ The Earl of Charlevillerose in consequence of the personal allusion that had been made to him by the noble Marquess; and he would tell the noble Marquess that he was happy to meet him face to face, and he received the challenge of the noble Marquess in the same manner in which the noble Marquess had thrown it to him. He should be ready, on the receipt of petitions from his county, to justify the course which he took as a magistrate, and also to justify the resolution which he proposed at the meeting alluded to. He must further say, that he felt greatly surprised when a Minister of the Crown rose upon that bench and brought a charge against him for exercising his right as a British subject to petition the throne.
The Marquess of Normanbydid not make any charge against the noble Earl, but the noble Earl had made a serious charge against him. All he meant to say was, that he believed the noble Earl had not any well-founded reason for the opinion he entertained on this subject.
§ The Earl of Charlevillesaid, at the proper time he should be prepared to defend his conduct, and to maintain his right to give the advice he had given.
§ Subject dropped.