HL Deb 09 March 1838 vol 41 cc712-29
The Archbishop of Canterbury

rose to present a petition from the bishops, clergy, and Protestant inhabitants of Upper Canada. The petition was signed by nearly 6,000 persons. It had been in his possession for some time, as he had received it in the spring of 1834, and the reason why he had not presented it before that time was, because the petitioners expected that a final settlement of all questions relating to the Church in Canada would have been made in each succeeding Session, and from the distance of the petitioners from the Legislature, they could not have been aware of the exact time when the discussion in regard to their religious establishments would take place. They had, therefore, placed the petition in his hands, in order to its being presented whenever the proper time for bringing it under their Lordships' attention should arrive. Late events in Canada had brought on the necessity for an immediate and final settlement of all questions relating to that province, and the time, therefore, had arrived when the petition ought to be presented. He would read to the House the petitioners' own words. The most rev. Prelate then read an extract from the petition to the following effect:—The petitioners stated themselves to be composed of Loyalists, who had left the United States under the most solemn pledge that they should have a constitution in every respect resembling that of the mother country, which constitution provided fur the security of the Church. They stated, that in fulfilment of that pledge, an Act had passed in the reign of George the 3rd, which provided for the support of a Protestant Church establishment, in a way which was not burdensome to any one. They further stated, that many of their number were emigrants from the parent state, who had left their own country, firmly persuaded that they should be secured in the inestimable privilege of worshipping God in the same way as their fathers had worshipped. They further stated, that a provision had been made for the support of the Protestant religion in Canada, and they humbly represented to that House, that they considered that provision as part of their birth-right; and that they had heard with feelings of the greatest pain, that a proposal had been made to deprive the Church in Canada of a provision which had been secured to that Church by the most solemn pledges. They claimed continued security for their religious rights, especially as those rights had been secured to the Roman Catholic population of Lower Canada, and they trusted to obtain permanent support for a Church establishment in connexion with the Church of England. On the subject to which the petition referred, he had not thought proper to make any remarks while the discussions regarding recent occurrences in Canada were going on in that House. In those discussions no question regarding the Church establishment in Canada was referred to, and the important questions regarding the civil concerns of the colony had so engrossed attention that he considered he should have acted improperly in bringing the matters to which the petition related under the consideration of their Lordships at that time. He did not wish to introduce the subject then, on account of the great excitement which prevailed in regard to the civil affairs of Canada, and because the subject of the petition in reality related to all the colonial possessions of England, as the whole of those possessions were similarly situated in regard to their religious concerns. He considered the question involved in the petition, one of universal importance, and he was sure he had no need to expatiate in that House on the salutary influence which religion exercised over the morals and character of a community, or on the beneficial effects which the Established Church in this country produced on the people. In Canada, the establishment and support of that Church was calculated to produce piety, loyalty, order, obedience to the laws, and that attachment to the mother country, which every lover of his country would wish to see in all the colonial possessions of England. Feeling persuaded that religion was necessary for the temporal and eternal welfare of mankind, it was of the highest importance that it should be extended to all the possessions of England. They knew that the destinies of ancient empires were intimately connected with religion: he believed that the same principle continued to operate; and that in the end it would extend its influence over the whole earth. It had ever been a part of the policy of England to support a religious establishment, and he feared, that if ever the interests of religion were excluded from her national policy, her glory and her greatness would decay and be extinguished. If this were true, then it became the duty of the governors of this country to take care that religion was duly encouraged everywhere, and that they should plant and cherish that national Church in all our colonies, which it was allowed presented the doctrines of Christianity in their purest form. But this was a duty which our governors from the earliest period had neglected. In a document which he held in his hand, and which was recognised by the Legislature, the duty and the neglect of that duty were both acknowledged. It was a charter of William the 3rd to the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel, and he would take the liberty of reading a passage from it to their Lordships. The most rev. Prelate read a passage, of which the following is the substance:—"Whereas in many of our colonies the provision for the ministers of religion is very lean; and whereas others are almost destitute of religious instruction, and many of our loving subjects are, from want of religious instructors, verging to infidelity;"—that, observed the most rev. Prelate, was an acknowledgment of neglect—"and whereas we think it our duty to provide sufficient maintenance for the ministers of religion in these our colonies, be it enacted, &c."That, continued the most rev. Prelate, was an acknowledgment of the duty, and accordingly the charter went on to provide for religious instruction to the people of those colonies, but all that was to be done was to be dependent on "the charity of our loving subjects". That was the whole extent of the provision made, and under that charter thirty clergymen were employed in America before the revolution—a number totally inadequate to the wants of the people. In this way matters went on, and no adequate provision was made for the Church Establishment. It was a remarkable circumstance, that during the course of the American war the Loyalists were almost universally the friends of the Protestant Church; whilst those persons who belonged to other denominations of Christians were not so steadfast in their attachment to this country. This was one of the circumstances which opened the eyes of the Administration of that period to the mistake committed by former Governments in not sufficiently attending to the religious concerns of the colony, and by an Act passed during the reign of George the 3rd, one-seventh portion of the unappropriated lands were set apart for the benefit of the Protestant church, so that means were thereby provided of making an allowance for new ministers without throwing any burden on the state. As, however, these reserved lands were not cultivated, they were not immediately productive; and in the mean time it was found necessary that Parliamentary grants should be made for the maintenance of the clergy; and, with the same view, a union was formed with the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts. He should also have mentioned that a bishop was appointed for Quebec, and the consequence of that appointment and of the other measures taken for the support of the Protestant church was, that, whereas at the time of the appointment of the first bishop of Quebec there were but six clergymen in both provinces, the number was increased during the time of that Prelate to above fifty; and at the present moment there were in the Canadas more than 100 ministers of the gospel belonging to the Protestant Established Church, who were partly paid by the Government, and partly by the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel. In the course of time inconveniences were found to arise from the assignment of so large a portion as he had already mentioned of lands to the church, amounting, he believed, to about 2,000,000 acres. For, as the establishment possessed no means of improving the waste lands, they remained unproductive, and presented obstacles to the general improvement of the country. He recollected that, when he was Bishop of London, several plans were proposed for removing those inconveniences, but none were considered satisfactory enough to be adopted. At no time, however, was there any question of withdrawing the support afforded by the Government to the church; and the policy of the Government, which set apart those reserved lands, was faithfully and conscientiously followed out. In the process of time the difficulties which were experienced became multiplied, and claims were made for a participation in the reserves, which the friends of the Established Church maintained were intended exclusively for it by the ministers of the Scotch Church, and by the ministers of all the different sects of Protestant Dissenters in the colony. He begged their Lordships to bear in mind that these claims were not preferred until after a lapse of thirty years from the time of the original grant. In 1828 a Committee of the House of Commons directed its attention to this matter, and shortly afterwards the House of Assembly in Upper Canada went so far as to declare that it would be better to apply the reserves rather than distribute them among all the various denominations of Christians to the purposes of education, and of making roads, for which money was wanted in the colony. At one time considerable as- sistance was given to the Established Protestant Church in the Canadas by grants voted by the House of Commons; but, in consequence of some manifestations in that assembly, a promise was given that those grants should be gradually withdrawn, so that it was to be feared that the church in Canada would be left destitute. He was ready to admit that the Government had acted with a degree of equity in continuing the allowances to the ministers of the church at present in Canada; but these allowances would expire with them, and the result would be, that whereas the number of clergymen in the two provinces, each of which was equal in extent to England and Wales, was already insufficient, that number must, of necessity, be considerably reduced. It was also a matter of regret that no proper provision was made for the maintenance of a bishop, when, in point of fact, it was absolutely necessary for the support of religion in the colonies that two bishops should be appointed. It was undoubtedly true, that some rectories had been lately endowed, and he understood it was the intention of the Government to sanction those appropriations; but they could not for some time be productive, as the land was uncultivated. Such being the case, it was evident, that unless due means were provided for supporting the church in Canada, it must fall; and all persons who had been induced to settle in Canada in the expectation of finding there a Protestant church establishment, would have good cause for complaint. At the time when the grant of those reserved lands was made to the church, who would have ventured to say that after the lapse of a few years all that property would be taken away, or that but a very little portion of it would be left? The different way in which the Protestant church and the Roman Catholic church had been treated was remarkable. The rights of the Roman Catholics were fully recognized by the capitulation of Quebec, and by two subsequent acts of Parliament. He thought that when the national faith was pledged it ought never to be broken; nor did the petitioners desire that it should. They were perfectly willing that the Roman Catholic church should remain in possession of all the advantages assured to it by the Acts of the Legislature; but they claimed equal favour for the Protestant church. Indeed, in one or two instances pensions had been granted to Roman Catholic bishops, whether rightly or wrongly he should not now inquire; and he was informed that after the grant made to the Roman Catholic bishop in Canada was abolished by Act of Parliament, he continued in the enjoyment of the same grant. Was it equitable, then, to withdraw the grants from the bishops of the Protestant church, while the grants to the bishops of the Romish church were continued? Persons who had settled in any colony upon the faith of Acts of Parliament, had a right to expect that those Acts would be observed, and that their claims would be respected. But it was sometimes said, how could this be done? Where could be found the means to support the church? He admitted, that this was a difficulty; but, although it was not for him to point out to the Government the plan they should adopt, yet he might say that, great as it was, it was not insurmountable. The Roman Catholic religion, which had subsisted for so long a time in Lower Canada, had been established and supported by the French when they possessed the colony; and yet it was thought impracticable for the Government of the present day to follow a similar course. It was not his intention to enter into these particulars, but he wished only to state the wants of the church in Canada. It was impossible for the church established there to be conducted with efficacy, and for a proper discipline to be preserved, without bishops being appointed for both the upper and lower province; and if that were done, he thought that, in the course of a very few years, a hundred additional clergy would also be wanted. In a letter which he had lately received from Dr. Stuart, that gentleman said, that it was impossible with such a vast extent of visitation as that which he had, over a distance of 1,000 miles—and he (the Archbishop of Canterbury) had understood, that instead of 1,000 it was no less than 1,800 miles—that one man, however active and zealous he might be, could go through this labour, and do justice to the Christian inhabitants of the parishes. The late bishop had shown his sincerity in this view by sacrificing out of his salary of 3,000l., 1,000l. out of it for the accomplishment of his object, and he had so far carried his point as to obtain the appointment of a coadjutor, to whom he resigned that sum as a salary. As soon, however, as he died, that salary ceased, so that the Bishop of Montreal had been left without a salary; and yet the duties he had to perform were so laborious that last year one of his visitations occupied four months, and if it had been of the whole province, it would have taken the rest of the year. In the upper province there were no visitations, no confirmations, and this want of spiritual superintendence was most lamentable. He would ask, too, what was the sum of 1,000l. per annum for a visitation of a country as large as England and Wales together? Now, what he should desire was, in the first place, that there should be a competent provision for the Bishops; nothing exorbitant or extravagant, but a moderate allowance, enough for them to pay their expenses, and enable them to live comfortably. Without this, the establishment must be given up. The provision, too, should be solid and permanent, such as by some endowments in the province. If it were ever to be done, it must be done now, for if this opportunity slipped by, it could not be done hereafter; there would be no means of effecting it. He only expressed his hope, that the principle of the original plan of Lord Grenville should be attended to. It was a wise and liberal policy to continue grants for a time until actual means could be supplied, and those means might be, in some degree, furnished by the charity of individuals; but if individuals could be so charitable, why should not the nation be so collectively? Whatever money might be laid out for this object in these provinces would be expended beneficially; it would bring back a large return in the improvement of the morals and the conduct of the people—in the increase of their loyalty, of their obedience to the laws, and, be believed, of their attachment to the mother country. He would say, let not false views of economy or cold calculations prevail over every other consideration; for, in fact, the happiness of the people in Canada was at stake. Did we owe nothing to Canada? Did it not furnish persons with the opportunity of emigrating—a provision of the Poor-laws which he thought most salutary—and thus afford a great relief to this country? But was it just to tell those who went out that they would find the same church established there as they had enjoyed here, when, on their arrival, they really found themselves in a wilderness, miles and miles away from the reach of a minister of the Gospel? He would only refer to the different spirit in which this country had acted as to the black population in the West Indies: we had there raised to ourselves a national monument of our regard to the rights of our fellow-creatures in making so large a sacrifice for the emancipation of the negroes, and for assigning such large funds (and he thought most properly so) for their education and spiritual instruction. Having done this, was it not most inconsistent for us to refuse a few thousands a-year for providing clergy to furnish the comforts of religion to those who had emigrated from this country, and by whose emigration our Poor-rates were so much diminished? But there was another objection. He had been told, and he had often heard it repeated, that the Established Church was in a great minority, and that, in fact, it was the smallest religious denomination in the country. This statement, however, he believed to have been made from prejudice, and by those who did not wish to see the establishment prosper; for, on the other hand, he had been also informed by most credible persons, that the Established Church bore the largest proportion, except the Popish Church, as was to be naturally expected. But there were many circumstances which might occasion this variety of statements, and made it difficult to learn the truth. There were thousands who were without any clergy at all—without any thing reminding them of their belonging to a Christian community, except the sentiments which they had learned from their fathers, or had carried out of this or other countries. No sooner did a clergyman go amongst these people, than they flocked round him, desiring him to baptise them and to preach to them. In one part, they had formed themselves into a body and called themselves Congregational Episcopalians; they had a minister of the Church of England, and had built a church by subscription. He had mentioned this only to show how the calculation might be wrong. If the establishment were as large as this country ought to provide for her subjects in all parts of the world, wherever they might be, instead of its being in a minority, it would be soon found that numbers would embrace it, and raise it to a majority. The only reason of its being so now was, that emigrants were landed in places where there was no religious instruction at all. He had endeavoured to make his statement general, so as to avoid anything unpleasent or offensive to any noble Lord who had been Secretary to the Colonies. He saw noble Lords sitting opposite to him to whom he felt himself bound to make acknowledgment for the courtesy and attention with which they had listened to his representations, and at the same time he must say, that he should be doing great injustice to the present noble Secretary for the Colonies, if he did not make the same acknowledgment to the noble Lord for the frankness of his communications and the readiness he had shown to attend to this subject; and he felt sure that the noble Lord was sincere in the regret which he had expressed that he could not comply with his present proposals. He had felt himself under the necessity of coming forward now, because if he had not done so, all exertion hereafter would be unavailing; but, in addition to this, there was another ground, which was to enter his protest against the doctrine to which he had just referred, that the Established Church was to be looked upon in Canada as only one of those sects which now distract Christianity, and that it was not entitled to any distinction above another; but that Ministers should determine for which sect any grant was to be made. Such was the tendency of the system most generally prevailing in the Colonies, and he thought it right to state, that he always felt it his duty to oppose any thing of that sort at once, and so relieve himself from any remonstrance which might afterwards be made, if things were not arranged according to his views, that he should have stated his objections before. He meant, however, to reserve to himself the power of opposing any scheme as to the colonies which did not make a decent provision for the Church Establishment, and if no other purpose were answered than informing the public what was the policy of the Government as to the Colonies, he should obtain his end; for he believed that the inhabitants of this part of the empire were not acquainted with the real condition of the Colonies although the public had a right to know that, and particularly the state of religion in the Colonies, and to express their feelings on that subject. He then moved that the petition be laid on the table.

The Earl of Ripon

said, that as an alteration in regard to the grant for the ecclesiastical wants of the province of Upper Canada took place while he had the honour to hold the seals of the Colonial Department, it became his duty to trouble their Lordships with a few observations in ex- planation of the circumstances under which it took place. In the year 1817, a Committee of the House of Commons instituted an inquiry into the subject of colonial expenditure, and in the report which terminated its labours, there was to be found a paragraph containing a strong recommendation, to the effect that, as far as funds could be raised to meet them, each individual colony should be made to bear its own expense, whether as regarded the charges of Government, justice, or religion. In consequence of that report, the Government of the day thought it their duty to set about a narrow revision of the colonial expenditure, and, in consequence, each succeeding year the amount of the sums voted for colonial purposes out of the general revenue of the country materially diminished. In 1826, the question of the maintenance of religion, and the diffusion of religious instruction in the colonies, came under the consideration of the Government, and the result was, that a plan with that view was adopted, under which it was arranged that the yearly sum of 16,000l. should be granted to the Society for the propagation of the Gospel, to be by it distributed among the colonies for religious purposes. It soon became obvious, indeed from the first it was anticipated, that the fair proportion of this sum, to which the province of Upper Canada was entitled, was inadequate to the wants of its population; and accordingly, in 1827, an Act was passed authorising the setting apart of a large mass of land, a portion of the two millions of acres granted by the Act of 1791, for the formation of a fund for ecclesiastical purposes. A fund having in this manner been created, and it appearing to him that it was most desirable with all dispatch to carry out the recommendations of the Committee of 1817, by making the colony, as far as possible, pay the expenses of the maintenance of its church, shortly after entering on the duties of the Colonial Department, he thought it his duty to suggest to the Governor of the colony, as the best mode of executing the purposes of 1791, to create rectories, and endow those rectories with a limited number of acres, applying to them money to bring them to a state of produce and income. According to his view of the subject, this plan would have most effectually met the object for which the original arrangement was proposed. The right rev. Prelate had stated, that the Church, by what had been done, had been left in state of complete destitution; but, in expressing that opinion, the right rev. Prelate seemed to have forgotten that the law had not been altered in a way to deprive the Church of the provision made for it by the Act of 1791. In sending out his instructions to the Governor, he had particularly directed him to keep in view the purposes for which that Act had been passed, and he believed his instructions had been religiously complied with. As yet, however, nothing had been done; for though the colonial government had taken the matter into consideration, their act had not yet received the sanction of the Imperial Parliament, and it would be quite competent for either House, should they so think fit, to reject it. He certainly concurred most cordially in the sentiments expressed by the right rev. Prelate as to the obligation on them to maintain in the colonies the Established Church; but in respect to those colonies which came into the possession of Great Britain by foreign conquest, there was in this respect very great difficulty, because no one of them surrendered without expressly stipulating for the maintenance and support of their religion; so that, in point of fact, the Church of England in those Colonies did not and could not stand identically on the same footing that it did in this country. In the province of Upper Canada there was the peculiarity of two established religions—the Catholic religion, which England had engaged to maintain, and the Protestant religion, as the religion of the mother country. In taking the course he did, he certainly did not believe, nor did he now, that he was doing anything to weaken the Church, or deprive it of its just influence; and, he might add, he was convinced that the plan he had suggested would, if acted upon, place it on a footing from which it could not be overturned.

Lord Glenelg

observed, that the subject now before their Lordships was of great importance, inasmuch as there was no point which so excited the feelings of all classes in the colonies as that relating to the support and maintenance of the different religious denominations. In deciding upon it much deliberation was necessary, and above all it was indispensable that the peculiar circumstances of the several colonies should be considered, and that as far as possible a deference should be shown for the opinions of the colonists themselves, as expressed by their local legislatures. The most rev. Prelate had observed on the great duty of improving the means of religious instruction in the colonies. He fully agreed with him on this head; but it was necessary in doing so to consider their means, and also that the colonists themselves had a right, and laid claim to the right, of deciding in what manner this should be done. The right rev. Prelate had alluded to the act of 1791, and had stated very generally that that act was passed to provide for the religious instruction of the people of Canada. He would shortly state what were the provisions of that act as it related to this subject. The act of 1791 provided that the one-seventh of every grant of land should be reserved for the support of the Protestant clergy. That act also provided for the establishment and endowment of rectories, which were to be given exclusively to the clergy of the Church of England. He should now state what might be called the historical facts relating to this subject. The act of 1791 appropriated two millions of acres to clergy reserves; but, in 1827, another act was agreed to, by which a sale of the clergy reserves was authorised, of 1,000 acres at a time, to the extent, on the whole, of one-fourth of the two million acres, and providing that the money should be transmitted to this country and placed in the funds with a view of being applied to the benefit of the clergy. In the year 1832 his noble Friend (Lord Ripon) recommended the House of Assembly to take into consideration the act of 1791, with a view to make such changes as were necessary for a proper disposition of the clergy reserves. His noble Friend suggested one mode of alteration, which was this: that the legislature of the colony should pass an act, transferring the reserves to the Crown, thus converting them into a part of the Crown land revenue. That was the suggestion which his noble Friend made to the House of Assembly; and it was important to remark that in referring that question to the Assembly his noble Friend only acted in accordance with the act of 1791, which expressly provided for the case of the local legislature altering or repealing that act so far as it related to the clergy reserves. The Assembly entertained the proposition, but no act was passed confirming it. So far from refusing to consider it, the subject was revived in two or three years, and in the very last session a bill was proposed for the transfer of these reserves to the Crown, which was lost only by one vote. He admitted that England was bound to redeem the pledge which she gave in 1791. As a member of the Church of England he was most anxious to promote the extension of that religion in all out colonies; but he must beg leave to observe that this was a question of considerable debate and discussion. He felt obliged to state, that it was by no meant admitted generally that the Church of England had an exclusive right to the clergy reserves. About 1823 a solemn claim was made by the Scotch church for a participation in the clergy reserves That claim was referred to the law-officer; of the Crown, Lord Gifford and Lori Lyndhurst; and it was their opinion that the act of 1791, giving the reserves for the support of the Protestant clergy, comprised the two established churches of Scotland and England. They were of opinion that the clause referring to endowments am rectories applied exclusively to the Church of England; but they declared that, with this exception, provision being made for the Protestant clergy meant those of the Scotch as well as of the English church The Committee which sat in 1828 expressed their entire agreement with an opinion of the law-officers of the Crown respecting rectories, and recommended that there should not be a complete exclusion of other denominations of Protestant clergy. Therefore it was perfectly clear that it was not an undisputed question that the Church of England had an exclusive right to the clergy reserves But even assuming that it was not questioned, he believed that Mr. Pitt and Lord Grenville, if they had been told forty years ago that the Assembly shout claim some voice in this matter, and that the various persuasions of Christian should put forward claims to the clergy reserves, and should appeal to the local Assembly to grant their demands, would have said, upon such a surmise being made "that is precisely the state of circumstances provided for in the act of 1791: we know how difficult it is to legislate upon such a subject for a population likely to increase to a vast extent, and how absurd it would be to fix and determine upon a new system when there are scarcely any inhabitants. To make a lay and declare it irrevocable, and like those of the Medes and Persians lay it down as binding for all ages, is an ambition which we do not possess; but looking to the progress of things, and to the certainty of a change of circumstances, we have made provisions in this act which will enable the local legislature not only to modify, but to vary or totally repeal it." It was quite inconsistent with this clause to assert that it was not competent to Parliament or to the local legislature to make any alteration that was deemed fit in the act of 1791 respecting the clergy reserves. How, then, stood at this moment the income which the Church of England received in Upper Canada? The most rev. Prelate had adverted to the mode in which the clergy of the Church of England were supported previous to that year, which was by Parliamentary grants out of the army extraordinaries. This was certainly a strange mode of supplying their grant to the clergy; and in the year 1832 it was determined that this demand should be included in the estimates, the Government giving a pledge that no fresh appointments should be subsequently put on the estimates, but that a reduction should be made, by large steps annually, and that finally the applications to Parliament should die away, on the removal or death of the incumbent. The Society for the Propagation of Christianity remonstrated most justly at the sudden defalcation which was caused in the resources for religious purposes. The consequence was an agreement of this nature: the Government undertook to support the whole of the clergy of Upper Canada, who had formerly been paid out of the vote for army extraordinaries, and the Society undertook to maintain those of the other North American colonies, and granted a sum for that purpose of 4,000l. a-year. The amount which the clergy received consisted of the interest of the sum vested in the three per cents., which amounted to 6,000l. a-year, and that not being sufficient, it was necessary to resort to the Crown revenues, out of which a sum was also paid of 2,500l. Therefore, the total sum now devoted to the support of the clergy amounted to 8,500l. a-year. Now, it must not be supposed that this sum was paid without creating discontent amongst the other religious denominations in the province. The members of the Church of Scotland felt most deeply on the subject. They presented many memorials to the colonial department, and last year they sent a deputation to the General Assembly of Scotland, which complained as loudly as the Church of England could do if similarly circumstanced, stating that they were deprived of their just right to a participation of the clergy reserves, which was sanctioned not only by the legal authorities to whom he had referred, but admitted by every successive Government. The General Assembly had accordingly taken up the subject very warmly, and the agitation on this subject might lead to petitions from other quarters. The Church of Scotland received from the Crown revenues in Upper Canada 1,500l. a-year, and the clergy of the Synod of Ulster 700l., making in all for the clergy of that class of religionists 2,200l. The Catholics also received from the same source 1,500l. a-year. Undoubtedly the members of the Scotch Church formed a numerous and powerful body in that colony. All these questions tended to involve this subject in very great difficulty and perplexity, which was not to be unravelled by the will of the Parliament of this country. No assembly was competent to deal properly with this question but the local legislature. But now it was proposed and urged, that additional funds should be given for the benefit of the Church of England. In speaking of that Church, he wished to observe what course had been taken with respect to the Bishop of Montreal. The late Bishop of Quebec, whose merits and character it was impossible to laud too highly, had a sum of 3,000l. a-year granted him in the estimates. He stated his wish to have a coadjutor appointed, offering to give him 1,000l. a-year out of his own income, upon being informed by the Government that they were under a pledge not to place a fresh appointment on the estimate for the constitution of a new bishopric. Dr. Mountain accordingly went to the bishopric of Quebec as coadjutor, receiving 1,000l. a-year, and continuing to be paid 900l. a-year as rector and archdeacon. Shortly after, the Bishop of Quebec died, and then the Government felt it very difficult to propose a vote for continuing his coadjutor's income to Parliament, and they certainly would not have done so if the situation of Lower Canada had been such as to admit a proposition being made for granting an income to the Bishop of Montreal. They felt, however, that without any departure from their engagements they might, under the circumstances, submit that a grant of 1,000l. a-year should be made to the Bishop of Montreal, which would make his income the same as that which he received during the life of the Bishop of Quebec—about 2,000l. a-year. But as it was agreed that the bishopric of Quebec should cease with the last holder, it was now proposed that a bishop should be appointed in the Upper Province. On this subject he had only to state, that if funds sufficient for such a purpose were found in the province, the object which was contemplated would be most desirable; but he confessed he did not see how this expense could be defrayed out of any resources but those at the lisposal of the local legislature. The clergy reserves and the Crown revenues were now placed under the control of the local assembly, and it would be impossible to interpose by an Act of the Parliament of this country for the appropriation of part of these funds to the purpose which he had mentioned. If provision could be made for this object out of the other revenues of the province, he should be pleased at the undertaking, and instructions were given to the governor to bring this subject especially under the notice of the Assembly. As to an application to Parliament, he did not think it advisable to make such an appeal, nor did he entertain strong hopes of its success, when it was considered that the subject was to be brought under the consideration of the Assembly, out of whose hands it would be ungracious and unfair to take it, particularly when it could not be known whether they would not provide most amply for the wants of the Church.

The Bishop of London

had only a few observations to offer to their Lordships, but they appeared to him to be of considerable importance. It was perfectly true, as had been stated by the noble Lord, that there was a clause in the Act, reserving to the local legislature the power of modifying or altering the provisions of the Act. That, it was quite clear, was prospective, and did not enable the Legislature to repeal the provisions of the Act. He (the Bishop of London) denied that the Imperial Parliament, even backed by the Colonial Legislature, had the power to do away with the provisions of that Act, as enforced with regard to the revenues of the Protestant clergy. One word upon the expression, "Protestant clergy." He did not mean to define whether the term applied singly to the clergy of the Established Church of England, or to the clergy of the Church of Scotland, or whether it did not include both. Two eminent lawyers, the then law officers of the Crown, had certainly held that the term included both. Another eminent lawyer, now holding a high judicial station in the country, was of an entirely different opinion. Such differ- ences of opinion appeared to him (the Bishop of London) clearly to show, that a question of that nature was not to be settled or determined by the opinions of the law officers of the Crown, or of lawyers, however eminent, but that it could only receive a final and satisfactory adjudication from the judicial tribunals of the country. With regard to the supposition that the term, "Protestant clergy" may include ministers of different denominations, he had one simple and conclusive answer to give. He defied the noble Lord to point out any statute in which the clergy of any other establishment were meant, except the clergy of the Established Church.

Lord Glenelg

was understood to say, that with respect to the clergy of the Church of Scotland, Government had ever since the period he alluded to assumed and acted upon the position, that the clergy of the Scottish Church were within the provisions of the Act.

Petition laid on the table.