THE ADDRESS.

HL Deb 04 February 1836 vol 31 cc5-22

The Royal Speech having been read,

The Duke of Leinster

rose to move an Address in answer to the Speech. He assured their Lordships that it was with very great difficulty he rose to address them; and although he could not plead youth or inexperience of the forms of the House as any excuse, he trusted, notwithstanding, that he should receive that indulgence which it was the invariable custom to extend to Members of their Lordships' House under circumstances similar to those in which he then stood before them. They had that day heard a most gracious Speech from his Majesty—one calculated to diffuse such general satisfaction, that he should best consult their Lordships' convenience, and his own feelings, by adverting but very shortly to the topics it contained. His Majesty in his most gracious Speech had stated, that such was the tranquillity of the country, and the absence of all causes of excitement and apprehension, that Parliament would be enabled to devote its calm and undivided attention to measures of improvement in the condition of the different classes of the community, and in the general institutions of the kingdom. He did not know how it was possible for Parliament to be employed in a manner more acceptable to itself than in the enactment of measures of general benefit to the country. He thought, therefore, that the House could not refuse to concur with his Majesty in rejoicing that they had met under circumstances so auspicious. His Majesty's gracious declaration that he continued to receive assurances of the existence of a friendly feeling towards this country from Foreign Powers, could not fail to be gratifying to all; and most sincerely did he hope that the mediation offered so opportunely between France and the United States of America, and accepted by the former power, might be crowned with success. The prolonged existence of civil war in Spain could not fail to afflict all the well-wishers of that country; but there was good reason to hope that the prompt and vigorous measures taken by the Ministry, to whose hands the destinies of Spain had been committed, would be attended with success. The next topic to which his Majesty had been graciously pleased to advert, related to the estimates for the present year; and it could not fail to be gratifying to their Lordships to entertain a well-founded expectation that they would be framed with every regard to a just economy. They had, indeed, heard from his Majesty that there would be an increase in the estimates for maintaining the maritime strength of the country. He did not apprehend that any augmentation demanded for the efficiency of a force so long regarded as the pride and honour of the country would meet with any serious opposition. Notwithstanding the general prosperity it was painful to reflect that distress did exist in some branches of the national interests. Some branches of agriculture were suffering under depression, and his Majesty had recommended inquiry with the view of ascertaining the causes of that depression. For his own part he did not think that such an inquiry would be attended with much good in the result; but it was, nevertheless, desirable in order to satisfy the minds of the sufferers, and of other persons who might take a different view of the question. The Report of the Commission appointed to consider the state of the several dioceses in England and Wales, was the next topic in his Majesty's Speech. He trusted that when this important document came under their Lordships' notice, it would receive all that consideration to which it was so justly entitled; and that such steps would be taken upon it as would tend to insure the stability, and advance the dignity of the Ecclesiastical Establishment in this country. His Majesty next alluded to a subject, upon which a very considerable portion of his Majesty's subjects entertained deep and decided convictions. It was the subject of Law Reform; and his Majesty was pleased particularly to point their attention to the Court of Chancery. He apprehended there could be no difference of opinion upon the subject of that Court, the very name of which they must be all aware, created dread and horror in the minds of his Majesty's subjects. Nothing was more calculated to alarm any man than the apprehension of having his affairs thrown into Chancery. It was quite enough to say that reform was necessary in that Court, to have the concurrence of all reflecting persons. The next subject referred to in the Speech from the Throne, related to Tithes in Ireland. Upon this subject he was anxious distinctly to be understood as not intending to cast blame upon any one. He did not mean to indulge in. reflections upon former Administrations. He was happy to say that the general aspect of the state of society in that country was one which spoke of peace and tranquillity. The only part of Ireland to which this observation did not apply, was the county of Tipperary; but, for as long as he could remember that country, Tipperary had always been, more or less, in a disturbed state. The rest of Ireland was in a tranquil state; and he trusted from the wise and firm measure of his noble Friend, the Lord-lieutenant of that country, it would continue so. From the inquiries he had made, and from his own personal knowledge, he was enabled to make this statement. It was, therefore, a favourable moment for taking the Tithe Question into consideration, and he hoped this would be done in a calm and even temper, with a view to put an end to all causes of discord. With respect to the Irish Corporations, if it had been found that the same abuses and defects existed as were ascertained to have existed in the Municipal Corporations of this country, he trusted that they would find a remedy by putting those Corporations on the same footing as the Municipal Corporations in England. The next question referred to in the Speech was the necessity of a Poor-Law in Ireland. The report of the Commissioners of Poor-law Inquiry had not yet been fully completed, but it certainly appeared that great distress existed in Ireland. He had resided in that country for twenty-three years, and had paid much attention to the condition of its people, and had the fullest opportunity of observing and inquiring into their condition, and the result was, that, without pledging himself to any more decided opinion on the subject, he was quite convinced that some measure of the kind must be brought forward. He was sure that until some system of Poor-laws was established in Ireland, that country would not be, properly speaking, in a sound and prosperous state. He did not know that it would be necessary for him to trouble their Lordships upon any other subject adverted to in his Majesty's Speech; and he would, therefore, beg leave to read the Address which he took the liberty of proposing for the adoption of their Lordships. The noble Duke read an Address, which was an echo of the Royal Speech.

The Earl of Burlington

rose to second the Address. Before proceeding to make a few observations on the subjects referred to in the Speech delivered that day from the Throne, he was anxious to assure their Lordships of his desire to follow the example of the noble Duke, and to abstain as far as possible from the introduction of anything that could tend to disturb the unanimity which usually marked the sentiments of that House upon the occasion of an Address in reply to the Royal Speech. There were many topics to which his Majesty's Speech alluded on which he entertained strong and decided opinions, at variance, perhaps, with a large portion of their Lordships' House; but as his Majesty's Speech merely indicated the different measures to which their attention would be called, and as it did not appear to him that their Lordships were required in any manner to recognise the principle of any measure upon which a difference of opinion might be supposed to exist, he felt that it would not be becoming in him, especially on the first occasion on which he had the honour of addressing their Lordships, to enter into a discussion upon those principles, and he would content himself, therefore, with briefly alluding to the topics contained in his Majesty's Speech. The attention of the country would no doubt be arrested by that part of his Majesty's Speech more particularly directed to the other House of Parliament respecting the increase in the Navy Estimates for the ensuing year. He felt strongly the necessity of a rigid and persevering economy in every branch of the public expenditure, and the country expected it with just confidence from his Majesty's Government; but at the same time there existed in this country a proper attachment to that branch of the public service; and if other nations thought proper to increase their naval forces, he was sure the Representatives of the people would not refuse, under such circumstances, to grant such an augmentation of our naval power as might be deemed adequate for the protection of the national honour and commercial interests of the country. He had heard with much satisfaction that his Majesty had received assurances from all foreign powers of the existence of a friendly disposition towards this country; and he was more particularly gratified by the allusion to the intimate union between this country and France. He trusted there was no reason to doubt that the Councils of the two countries would be directed by such a policy as would ensure the continuance of peace. The existence of war in any part of Europe was to be deplored, and he was sure that that House would cordially concur with that passage in his Majesty's most gracious Speech which breathed a hope that the vigour and prudence of the present Government of Spain might be equal to the urgency of the crisis in that country. With respect to the internal condition of the country, he believed, there was but one opinion upon the state of the manufacturing districts, viz., that they were in a state of unparalleled prosperity. He believed that all classes engaged in the pursuits of industry were in a most flourishing and satisfactory condition; but he was sorry to be obliged to agree with the Address, that a great portion of the agricultural districts did not participate in that prosperity. During the recess they had heard a great deal of the universal prevalence of agricultural distress, and in some instances, as it appeared to him, measures of a dangerous nature had been proposed. For himself, he could not anticipate that after hearing the evidence of well informed and unprejudiced individuals, that distress would then be found so universal as had been represented—and he had no doubt that for such distress as might be found to exist remedies would be proposed not inconsistent with the general welfare of the State. He could not, however, leave this part of the subject without observing, that he did not think it could with justice be said that Parliament had done nothing to relieve that distress, because he thought a measure that was passed two Sessions ago had the effect of considerably alleviating the condition of the agriculturists, He alluded to the Poor-law Amendment Act. He could not sit down without alluding to another subject adverted to in his Majesty's Speech. He meant the alteration of the tithe system in England and Wales. He could not help thinking that by removing the oppressive nature of its operation much relief might in some instances be given to agriculture, and notwithstanding the failure of former efforts, he trusted that Parliament might be able to devise some measure of a satisfactory nature calculated to remove all dissension. As to the inquiry into the dioceses of England and Wales, he trusted the labours of the Commission might be such as would promote the efficiency of the Establishment, by removing the abuses which had given rise to so much obloquy. He feared that the existence of these abuses, if they much longer continued, would have the effect of materially shaking the foundation of the Church; but he trusted that measures would be proposed which would meet the views of the large body of the clergy. It was unnecessary for him to state at length the grievances of the Dissenters, they were well known to their Lordships, and he believed that all parties had expressed an anxiety to see them removed. He trusted the principle which had of late years induced Parliament to remove a great portion of the disabilities and grievances under which their fellow-subjects had laboured, would also have the effect of inducing them to adopt some measures to relieve the grievances of Dissenters. After what had fallen from the noble Duke relative to the state of Ireland, and after the expression of his opinions, which should always carry with them great weight, he felt that he almost intruded upon the attention of the House by referring to the subject. In every speech from the Throne since the commencement of his present Majesty's reign, their attention had been directed to the state of the Tithe Question in Ireland; but unfortunately it remained unsettled, and he trusted another Session would not be allowed to pass until this truly important subject was finally arranged. On a subject upon which it was to be presumed a very great difference of opinion existed, he should content himself by stating what he had already said of other measures, that it was his anxious hope that such enactments as should be made would have the effect of promoting the true interests of religion and the peace of the country. But he trusted their Lordships would consider the different circumstances in which the Churches of England and of Ireland were placed. He need hardly say, that the difference to which he alluded, consisted in the difference of religious opinions entertained by a large body of his Majesty's subjects in that country. Their Lordships were aware, from the Report of the Commissioners of Corporations in Ireland, that the same causes of discontent existed in that country as had been felt in England until the force of them had at length operated a remedy; and he had no doubt they would concur with him in hoping that a measure might be brought forward upon that subject satisfactory to all the Corporate towns in Ireland. The next topic in the Address proposed by his noble Friend referred to the introduction of a system of Poor-laws into Ireland. He was inclined to think that this was the most important, and at the same time the most difficult, of all the various questions adverted to in his Majesty's Speech. The first Report of the Commissioners upon this subject had made it imperative upon Parliament to do something. At the same time, the most anxious care should be exercised to avoid the same bad consequences resulting from a bad administration of those laws, as had occurred in this country. This was especially necessary in the peculiar circumstances of Ireland. If a satisfactory measure should be adopted by Parliament, he hoped that they would not stop there in their measures of relief for Ireland. He did not believe that any system of Poor-laws, however well devised, would suffice to produce a permanent good effect in that country. It might alleviate some portion of the misery of a population sunk in wretchedness, but it would not reach the sources of the evils to which Ireland was a prey. In order to do anything effectual for that country, it would be necessary, first, to discover the real sources of her misery, and then boldly apply a remedy. The difficulties in the way of such a course were undoubtedly many, but he believed they were not insurmountable, and he hoped Parliament would adopt some measure which would not only administer relief to the suffering, but hold out to the industrious poor some prospect of adequate employment, and reward for their labour. He begged leave, in conclusion, to thank the House for the great kindness they had shown towards him.

The Duke of Wellington

said, he quite concurred in the opinions which the noble Duke and the noble Earl opposite had so ably expressed as to the great importance of the Speech which had been that day delivered from the Throne. He believed that never had there been a Speech delivered from that Throne embracing so many important topics, upon all of which so much depended. He would not attempt to discuss all those topics upon that occasion. Other opportunities for discussing them would occur, and he should, therefore, follow the prudent example of the noble Lords opposite, and say but little upon them. At the same time he wished he could attend to the suggestion of the noble Earl who had last spoken, not to oppose any part of the Address which had been proposed. He sincerely rejoiced at the intimation conveyed in the first part of the Speech from the Throne, which stated that there was no appearance of any probability that the peace of the world would be disturbed. He confessed that from what he had heard lately of armaments in a state of preparation in the ports of this kingdom, he had been apprehensive that he should receive different information upon this occasion. It was to him, therefore, very satisfactory to hear that not only was there no ground for such an apprehension, but that his Majesty had received from all Powers, Potentates, and States, assurances of a continued desire to cultivate friendly relations with this country, and that those armaments which, according to report, had been in preparation for months, had no other object than merely to guard the extended commerce of the country. It gave him great satisfaction to learn that there was no ground for apprehending that this country was likely to be embarked in a war, for it was her interest, not only to preserve peace for herself, but for the whole world. That ought at this moment, more peculiarly than at any other, to be the object of this country. He regretted that the naval force of this country had been reduced some years ago from that very amount to which he believed it was now intended to go back, because the alarm caused by the augmentation at present proposed would not have occurred had that reduction not been made. But he would not trouble their Lordships with any further observations upon this topic. He should have allowed the Address in answer to his Majesty's Speech to pass unanimously, so far as he was concerned, if it had not been for a particular paragraph in the Speech, and a particular answer to that paragraph in the Address, to which it was absolutely impossible he should agree. It had not heretofore been the practice of his Majesty, in his Speech from the Throne, to indicate the particular principles upon which any measure to be proposed by the Government was to be framed. The usual practice had been for the Crown to draw the attention of Parliament to a particular subject, and state the measures to be proposed for the consideration of Parliament upon that subject; and it had been usual for Parliament, in answer to that recommendation, to state that Parliament would take the subject into its serious consideration. In the Speech, however, that day delivered from the Throne, his Majesty stated upon one particular subject, the subject of Corporation Reform in Ireland, the principles upon which the measure ought to be framed. The passage was as follows:—"You are already in possession of the Report of the Commission appointed to inquire into the state of the Municipal Corporations in Ireland, and I entertain the hope that it will be in your power to apply to any defects and evils which may have been shown to exist in those institutions, a remedy founded upon the same principles as those of the Acts which have already passed for England and Scotland." This was not the usual way, he repeated, in which the Sovereign had been in the habit of addressing Parliament respecting the measures to be proposed by Government. The noble Earl who had last spoken had stated very truly, that the House ought not to be pledged upon this painful question, either with respect to the principles or any matter of detail relating to measures to be brought forward by his Majesty's Government. All that the House could be called upon to do was to say that it would take the subject into its consideration in accordance with his Majesty's commands. He disapproved of this novelty—for a novelty he must call it. He thought that his Majesty's Ministers ought not to have given such advice to his Majesty, and he, for one, most certainly could not answer his Majesty's Speech as was proposed by the noble Lord opposite. The portion of the Address in which he could not concur was this;—"Being in possession of the report of the Commission of Inquiry appointed to inquire into the Municipal Corporations in Ireland, we partake of the hope entertained by your Majesty, that it will be in our power to apply to any defects and evils which may have been shown to exist in those institutions, a remedy founded upon the same principles as those of the Acts which have been already passed for England and Scotland. In his opinion their Lordships ought not to be called on to pledge themselves, as they would do if they told his Majesty that they partook of the hope that the principle of the Acts for England and Scotland should be the foundation of the Bill for Ireland. Under these circumstances, he intended to propose to their Lordships an Amendment to that part of the Address. He should hope that his Majesty's Ministers did not intend to call on their Lordships to pledge themselves to those principles on this occasion, and he hoped, therefore, that they would agree to substitute the words which he proposed to insert. His Amendment was, "Being in possession of the report of the Commission appointed to inquire into the state of the Municipal Corporations in Ireland, we will proceed, without delay, to the consideration of any defects and evils which may have been shown to exist in those institutions, for the purpose of applying such remedies as may obviate just causes of complaint, and insure the impartial administration of justice." He would not detain their Lordships further on the subject of this Address. He felt the great importance of every one of the topics it contained: but he should reserve the observations he had to make on them for future opportunities. He would not sit down, however, without asking the noble Viscount at the head of his Majesty's Government, what course he intended to pursue to bring the subjects alluded to in the King's Speech under consideration? He begged to inquire whether it was the noble Viscount's intention to bring those measures, or some of them, forward in this House in the first instance, or what course he proposed to adopt, in order that this House might have the measures before it, at a period sufficiently early to give to them the mature consideration they required without sitting, as last year, up to a very late period?

Viscount Melbourne

said, though I should have been better satisfied if the noble Duke had found it in his power, on coming to a consideration of the Address, to have given his concurrence to all parts of it, and thus to have acted in that manner which is held by your Lordships, both individually and collectively, as most desirable on such occasions—namely, that, on the first night of the Session, having just received his Majesty's most gracious Speech from the Throne, we should agree to an Address to his Majesty, avoiding any decided difference of opinion whatever—though, I say, I should have been better satisfied if the noble Duke could have reconciled it to his sense of duty to take that course which he stated—and no doubt truly stated—it was his desire to take, yet I cannot but congratulate myself that the difference the noble Duke has pointed out—the difference on which he does insist—is so very small, and one that bears so little proportion to the remaining portions of the Speech, which the noble Duke states to be more pregnant with matters of importance to the country than any Speech that was ever before delivered from the Throne. I must say, however, that I think the noble Duke exaggerates in that respect. I admit, indeed, the great importance of many of the topics; I admit, that as regards many of the contemplated measures, they are calculated to exercise, and I trust will exercise, a most salutary and beneficial influence on the morals and prosperity of the country; but when I consider the times which are past and through which we have lived, when I consider the great changes which have been introduced, I think the noble Duke a little exaggerates, when he describes the present as the most important Speech he ever heard from the Throne. When the noble Duke contrasts the spirit and temper of those times with the tranquillity of the present day, I think he must be sensible that he has gone a little beyond the limits of just description. In what the noble Duke has said on the foreign policy of this country, I give my entire concurrence. I assure him I will use every effort in my power, to carry his views for the preservation of peace into effect. With the noble Duke, I say, that the preservation of peace ought to be the great object of our policy; and it is an object, to secure which, I can assure the noble Duke, all our best exertions are, and shall be, directed. I also agree with the noble Duke with respect to the sentiments delivered by him on the naval force of this country; the increase now intended is only for the purpose mentioned in the Speech itself—to meet the necessity of maintaining the maritime strength of the country, and giving adequate protection to its extended commerce. With respect to the objection of the noble Duke to that paragraph in the Speech which relates to the Municipal Corporations of Ireland, the noble Duke says, that his Majesty's recommendation is a novelty. I do not pretend to be so much a master of what has been said on all such occasions as to contradict the noble Duke; but I very much doubt whether it has not been usual in the Speech from the Throne at various times, and in relation to various topics, to suggest to Parliament the principles on which it should proceed. The noble Duke says it is not usual, but what reason is there why it is not usual? Why should such a course not be taken? Is the want of a precedent the only reason why his Majesty, or the advisers of his Majesty, are to be prevented from doing that which is obviously useful? I contend that it is not sufficient to say the course we have adopted is not usual, but it is incumbent on those who would govern us by precedents to show that the precedents have no exception, and have some foundation in public utility. I assure the noble Duke that the paragraph in question was well considered, and the expression "founded upon the same principles as those of the Acts which have been already passed for England and Scotland," was adopted to obviate objection in the minds of noble Lords. We have always been ready to admit, that if there are any peculiar circumstances in Ireland—anything peculiar in the character of the population, or in the nature of the country, or in the corporations themselves,—rendering the provisions of the Acts passed for England and Scotland inapplicable to Ireland—we have always been ready to admit there might exist a ground for difference; therefore we did not say the "provisions," but the "principles," meaning the "principles," so far as they are suitable to the peculiar condition and circumstances of the Irish people. I say, then, my Lords, that there is, in fact, no material difference between the words in the original Address and the words proposed by the noble Duke. The one no more binds your lord- ships to apply the provisions of the Acts for England and Scotland to Ireland than the other, and that being so, I think it will be more befitting this House, and more respectful to his Majesty, to adhere to the words as moved, and thus return an answer according to form and custom, in as nearly as possible those expressions which his Majesty has been himself advised to use from the Throne. I trust that the noble Duke, for the sake of that unanimity which he thinks desirable, will not on this occasion insist on the Amendment which he has thought proper to move.

The Earl of Winchilsea

said, that after the decided opposition which he had given in the last Session of Parliament to the measure which was carried for regulating the English Municipal Corporations, it was almost unnecessary for him to state to their Lordships that the amendment which had been proposed by his noble Friend would receive his warmest support. The only objection which he entertained to the amendment was this, that it did not place him in a situation, on the first night of the Session, to put on record not merely his opposition, but his decided hostility to the principles and course of policy pursued by the noble Viscount and his Colleagues, both foreign and domestic. He was prepared to say, that the maintenance of those principles to which he adverted had been persevered in, in direct variance with the high feeling of this great nation. He was prepared to say, that those principles had tended only to degrade the national character, and had lost us that commanding respect and interest which we had hitherto maintained amongst surrounding nations. The principles which guided the present Government, connected as they were with our domestic policy, had brought the country to the verge of, ruin, and those institutions which had hitherto diffused more joy and happiness than had ever been known under other forms of Government, were threatened with destruction. It ceased, however, to be a matter of surprise that it should be so, when they reflected that the Speech from the Throne was, in point of fact, the Speech of his Majesty's ministers. That Speech contained not the slightest allusion to the domestic or political events which had occurred since last their Lordships met within these walls, though in any other than the extraordinary circumstances under which the Government was placed, this would have been done. He would not, however dwell upon the fact of persons holding the highest official situations taking a part in certain proceedings. This circumstance had, however, engrossed the attention of every reflecting mind throughout the country. Yes, it had elicited from one extremity of the country to the other, in every breast which was actuated by feelings of honour or patriotism, the greatest degree of abhorrence. The course which had been pursued could only have for its object the subversion of the British Constitution. Acts had of late been tolerated which, in other times, would have been treated as acts of treason. He would refer their Lordships, and he would confine his observations to those times which were in their Lordships' recollection—he would refer to the period of the French revolution, when those contagious, those democratic and levelling principles were paramount in that country, which was to this hour a living monument of the DIVINE wrath. These principles tended to the uprooting of all good government, and of every foundation upon which social order existed, and tended also to the debasing of human nature. He would warn their Lordships by reminding them of the general evils arising out of the French revolution. Let their Lordships look around, and they would behold a dark and gloomy political desert. Not one bright speck was to be seen in our own political horizon. He would caution the noble Viscount at the head of his Majesty's Government to be-' ware of what course he pursued; for the moment a principle of equality was admitted, properly would be at an end, and religion and laws would be set at nought. Before he sat down he must observe, that at a late period of the session last year so many Bills were submitted to their Lordships shortly before its close, that it was impossible to give them due consideration. In the month of August between fifty and sixty public Bills were placed on the Table of their Lordships' House. It was impossible for their Lordships to discharge the duty they owed to the country by giving to those Bills the attention they deserved. He must express his regret that a noble Earl for whom he entertained the greatest respect, and who was the King's representative in the Sister Kingdom, should have received the individual to whom he had before alluded at his Court immediately after a tour of agitation, the chief object of which was to villify their Lordships' House. He would conclude by saying that religion was not left to them as mere matter of doubt; there was only one religion which it was the duty of Christian ministers and a Christian Legislature to maintain, and that was the Protestant religion. Their Lordships had taken an oath to maintain it; but he believed, if the measures were passed which were recommended, the most mischievous consequences would ensue, such as would endanger that religion they had sworn to maintain, and, therefore, he trusted that their Lordships would support the amendment which had been proposed by the noble Duke.

Lord Wharncliffe

said it was not his intention to go through all the points to which the Speech from the Throne alluded, but the paragraph in question was certainly not one of a common nature in such productions. The Speech, indeed, did not merely state what it was the intention of the Government to propose, but it called upon their Lordships to relieve certain alleged grievances on certain principles. That those grievances should be removed their Lordships granted. Wherever grievances could be shown to exist, their Lordships were ready to apply in such cases a proper and efficient remedy; but he objected to be pledged to particular principles. Those principles of action might be judiciously adopted in respect to the people of England and Scotland, and yet in the country to which the Speech alluded—in Ireland—it would be most improper to apply them. There were two propositions before their Lordships, upon which they were called to decide. His Majesty's Government called on them to remedy the grievances in Ireland on certain fixed principles, which they said had been carried into execution in two parts of the empire. On the other side, he and his Friends said, "no;" they were ready to remove the grievances in a satisfactory mode; but they objected to be pledged as to that mode. What were those principles? Were they merely that there should be no exclusion in the formation of the corporations; that there should be no self-election; if so, he was ready to subscribe to them. But if they were to be carried further, if they were to be taken from the Bill which was brought op last year, he objected to adopt them in the corporations of Ireland, however proper they were in the corporations of England. In saying this much he did not mean to prejudge the question; he was ready to consider whether this mode which was proposed by his Majesty's Government was the best; but he would not before hand pledge himself to particular principles, when other and better remedies might be found. He sincerely hoped that the noble Duke would persist in his Amendment.

The Marquess of Lansdowne

would confine himself to the very narrow position taken by the noble Lord who had just spoken. The opposition of the noble Lords opposite rested on the narrowest ground that he ever remembered to be assigned for opposition. So narrow was i, that he felt most anxious not captiously to oppose any thing calculated to produce the unanimity which their Lordships so much desired. But in expressing that wish he considered it necessary, especially, to guard himself and his colleagues against the supposition of having advised those words to be inserted in his Majesty's Speech, from any intention whatever to pledge their Lordships as to the particular nature of the measure to be proposed, or any attempt whatever to lay down the precise nature of the principles on which the measure was to be founded. The intention was to allow the largest latitude to the consideration of the House; not to pledge them to principles, but to point out the necessity, which their Lordships admitted to exist., of removing acknowledged abuses, and substituting responsible for irresponsible power. He was not disposed to urge any opposition to the words proposed to be introduced by the noble Duke; and not feeling disposed to make that opposition, he was anxious to make any sacrifice so small as this to obtain unanimity. He trusted that the noble Duke, and he trusted that their Lordships would allow him, both in his own name and in the name of his Colleagues, to protest against any inference, that by consenting to leave out the words relating to the principles of the measure, and admitting the words of the noble Duke, they were binding or pledging themselves not to abide by the same principles as those of the acts for England and Scotland. On the contrary, he begged to declare that they reserved to themselves most fully and distinctly, the privilege of proposing to their Lordships a bill, founded on what they should consider to be the same principles, because it was only by a bill founded on those principles that they could hope to give satisfaction to the people of Ireland. Unless they could give satisfaction to Ireland by the Bill they introduced, founded on the principles to which he had adverted, it would be their duty not to bring forward any such measure, but to leave it to other hands to propose the measure, and carry it through this House. He entered then his protest against being bound by the Amendment of the noble Duke and that being understood, he believed he might say for his noble Friends near him, as he said for himself, that he was unwilling to take up the time of their Lordships with any protracted discussion of this narrow point. While their Lordships were unpledged as to the detail?, they were pledged to give their consideration to the question.

The Duke of Wellington

said, that in the proportion that he felt pain in moving this Amendment, did be now feel satisfaction that the noble Lords opposite, to whom he offered his sincere thanks, had adopted it. As to the explanation which had been given he would merely observe, that he objected to the words of the Address because they appeared to him to pledge their Lordships to the principles of a measure which they had not yet had the opportunity of discussing and considering;. On the other hand, their Lordships could not require from the noble Lords opposite, that they should abandon any principles which they thought it their duty to maintain. All he should say further on this subject was, that he should come to a consideration of the measure with the sincere desire of perfecting it and carrying into execution the objects which he had stated in his amendment. He did not wish to press anything of a disagreeable nature, but he was anxious to ask what was the course of proceeding which the noble Viscount proposed. Were there any measures which he proposed to introduce at once to their Lordships with a view to accelerating the progress of public business.

Lord Melbourne

I cannot now name the precise day, but I beg to assure the noble Duke that it is ray intention to bring forward in this House, and as speedily as possible, some of the most important of the measures which have been recommended by his Majesty's Speech.

The Address, as amended, was agreed to.

The following Protest Was entered by Lord Cloncurry to the Amendment moved by the Duke of Wellington.

1. 1st. Because such Amendment will excite in the minds of the people of Ireland a fear that it is not intended to extend to them the same meed of justice, and the same extent of corporate reform, which have been so beneficially afforded to the people of England and of Scotland.
2. 2d. Because a full measure of corporate reform is more necessary, if possible, in Ireland than it could have been in England, the majority of corporators in Ireland being not only insolvent peculators, but traders in religious intolerance, insulting to the great majority of the people.
3. 3d. Because great alarm must be excited in the minds of the friends of Ireland by an Address proposed by the first peer of that country, constantly resident, acquainted with their wants, and dear to their hearts, being curtailed or emasculated, at the suggestion of a party whom they believe to be hostile to their interests, and to the general principles of liberty.
4. 4th. Because, in the present state of public opinion in Ireland, it is necessary to prove to the people of that country, that it is the intention of Parliament to treat her as an integral part of the empire, which can alone suppress or mitigate their aspirations for a domestic and paternal Legislature.
5. 5th. Because the long-continued system o. injustice and oppression, to which the people of Ireland have been subjected, has engendered a degree of suspicion and distrust in their minds, which can only be overcome by the most perfect fulfilment of promises held out, and of hopes fostered in their bosoms, by a Sovereign they revere, a local Government they respect, and an Administration who, having done so much for the cause of Reform in England, must, in their good policy and good sense, see the necessity of obtaining as much for Ireland.

CLONCURRY.