HL Deb 20 August 1833 vol 20 cc786-90

Order of the Day for the Committee on the China Trade Bill having been read,

Lord Auckland

stated the object of the Bill was to provide a sbstitute for the existing British Factory at Canton, by which the trade with China had hitherto, under the auspices of the East India-Company, been managed. It proposed, in the first place, the appointment of three superintendents, to reside at Canton, to whom the entire regulation of the Canton trade should be intrusted, with power to appoint such officers as they might require to assist them in the execution of their duty, and to grant such officers whatever amount of salary they might deem necessary. It was likewise provided, that his Majesty should be empowered by an Order in Council, to give to the superintendents so appointed entire power over the trade and commerce to be carried on by his subjects with any part of the Chinese dominions, and in furtherance and execution of such power to erect any number of Courts of Justice, and to frame such rules and regulations for its observance as they might deem requisite. The powers which the Bill proposed to intrust to the Crown were undoubtedly of a most extensive character, but they were not without precedent; and, taking into consideration all the circumstances of the case, he contended they were quite justifiable. The principal objection which he understood as likely to be urged to the Bill related to the mode in which it was proposed the establishment should be paid and supported. The plan which the Bill proposed was certainly not without precedent; but, although he would contend there was nothing in the manner of the clause which justified the objection expressed to it, to avoid all possible opposition he had come to the determination of preparing an amendment which he trusted would prove satisfactory. His proposition was, in lieu of the charges mentioned in the Bill as it stood, to levy an amount of duty not exceeding 1l. ad valorem duty on the amount of goods, whether imports or exports, and a charge not exceeding 5s. per ton on the amount of tonnage; by which means it was estimated a fund amply sufficient to defray the expense of the proposed establishment would be obtained. A further objection to the Bill related to the proposed establishment of resident superintendents at Canton, without the authority or concurrence of the Chinese government. In the first place he begged to remind the House that such an interference on the part of Great Britain towards a foreign state was not new; and in the second place, he was happy in being able to state that, from all the evidence which had been collected on the subject, there was every reason to expect the establishment of a well constituted authority to take the place of the Company's Factory in the regulation of the trade would be well received by the Hong merchants, and through their influence by the Chinese government. The noble Lord concluded by moving, that the House resolve itself into a Committee.

Viscount Strathallan

objected to the exclusion of the East-India Company from a participation in the China trade, so useful to them for the purpose of remittance. Though he had no doubt of the friendly disposition of some of the noble Mandarins of China, yet he was confident that whilst the government there existed in its present shape, it would never suffer the establishment of Superintendents or consuls; and he thought the same object could be obtained by vesting additional powers in the supercargoes, and binding the owners of vessels to obey the regulations that might be framed, under certain penalties. He objected, moreover, to the great expense of these establishments. If, according to the Bill, one per cent was levied on exports and imports, the sum raised would amount to 80,000l. per annum. The Courts proposed to be established by the Bill were also very objectionable, and established a very dangerous precedent. Indeed, the whole Bill was one of a Theoretic nature, and he feared that soon we should have little or no tea at all. The East-India Company had tea for two years' consumption in hand, therefore for two or three years the evil would not be felt; but after that time, he thought the revenue would suffer a serious defalcation.

Lord Ellenborough

said, there was not a single detail, even as the Bill then stood, of which he could approve. In the first place, the Bill did a great deal more than give his Majesty a power to appoint three superintendents to reside entirely at Canton for the regulation of the trade, inasmuch as, although the noble Lord opposite had certainly abstained from so stating it, the words of the clause gave his Majesty power to appoint three or more superintendents, and further enabled him to place the superintendents so appointed either at Canton, where a British trade was already established, or elsewhere, where, as yet, no trade was established. The Bill then proceeded to give the Crown a power of allotting to the superintendents and to any officers they appointed any amount of salary they might choose to demand. Now, that he looked upon as a monstrous power, and one which Parliament should be very cautious how they intrusted. Much had been said of the vast degree of patronage heretofore possessed by the East-India Company in China; but he had no hesitation in saying the present Bill gave to the King's Government for the time being the power of creating quite as much if not more, of that power than the Company ever possessed. Then, with respect to the clause which provided for the expenses of the proposed establishment, he confessed that his objections had not been at all removed by the alteration proposed by the noble Lord. At the lowest calculation the annual amount of the duties proposed to be levied would be 87,500l., all of which it was contemplated should be divided among the three or four persons who were to exercise the consular powers of Great Britain at Canton. Surely such a sum could not be necessary for that purpose. Why, it was within 13,000l. of the whole amount of the estimates for consular charges during the last year. If the system of defraying consular charges by fees was under any circumstances to be defended, it unquestionably was most inapplicable at the present moment to the trade with China. The charge of 1l. per cent ad valorem on goods, whether exported or imported, was fully equal to a charge of 2l. per cent on the imports; and when he assured their Lordships, that the proposal of the noble Lord would take off at least 20l. per cent on the possible profits of the persons engaged in trade, he thought he was fully justified in asserting that, in its present condition the China trade could not bear the additional pressure this Bill would impose. He objected to the establishment of a Court of Justice at Canton, as wholly inapplicable to the circumstances of the place where it was to be established. Let the British Legislature arm their Commissioners with what powers for the execution of justice they might, they, would be wholly inoperative in a foreign land, even to compel witnesses to attend. The Bill proposed, that the superintendents should not be permitted to traffic for either their own benefit or for the benefit of any other person. But he confessed he could not see how it would be possible to prevent them from doing so. He was unwilling to allude to a very painful and very disgusting case of recent occurrence, but that case proved how prone human nature was to disregard principles of honour, and even the approbation of friends, when personal aggrandizement came into question. With such a case before them, he asked, what security was there that the provision against trafficking by superintendents could be enforced? He objected also to the Bill that there was a want in it of any provision for bringing the sums to be levied on the commerce, as well as the application of them before Parliament. Me had no objection to the Bill going into Committee, but he felt bound to assert it was a measure which never ought to have been sent up to that House from the House of Commons.

The Duke of Wellington

said, that the attempt to establish Superintendents or Consuls in China would fall. The Company's Supercargoes were only permitted to reside there by a Treaty, and those only for about three or four months, and for the remainder of the year they were compelled to resort to Macao, in the Portuguese territory. There was, however, no treaty at all between China and this Government.

Lord Auckland

said, it was unfair to assume that because Government was authorised to collect a duty not exceeding one per cent, that therefore they would go to the full extent unless it were required; but it was exceedingly desirable, when it was proposed to make a permanent establishment, that the means should not be too limited. The noble Baron was mistaken in the amount that would be raised, as some of the vessels would evade paying the duty by not entering the port of Canton. As to the Courts of Justice they would not be ordinarily resorted to, and the most effective power was that of refusing permission to vessels to unload until they had conformed to regulations. The establishment certainly was expensive, and the expense might after a few years be reduced; but, considering what a princely establishment was kept up by the Company, it would not be advisable to make too sudden a change. As to the Superintendents being permitted to act as agents, it would derogate from their authority in the eyes of the Chinese.

Their Lordships then went into Committee, and the Bill with its several amendments was agreed to.

House resumed.