The Bishop of Bristolpresented a Petition, agreed to at a meeting of the Inhabitants of Bristol and its vicinity, and signed by 9,000 persons, against the Ministerial System of Education (Ireland). The petitioners deprecated any system of education in schools, from which the Word of God was proscribed, and stated, that under the old system, the number of children educated had increased, since 1812, from 50,000 to 300,000. The petitioners deprecated the bestowing of parliamentary grants for teaching the exclusive doctrines of the Roman Catholic religion.
The Earl of Radnordid not wish to provoke any debate on the subject, as a matter of so much importance (the Reform Bill) was to come under consideration; but he hoped that it would not be understood that, by passing over the subject in 2 silence, he admitted the statements in these petitions to be correct. He certainly did not admit the statements to be correct.
The Earl of Rodencould not allow that assertion to pass without contradiction. He believed the statements in the petition to be founded in fact, and maintained that that was an infamous system of education from which the unmutilated Word of God was excluded. A noble Baron (King) had asserted, that the opposition to the new system of education arose from a conspiracy of saints to trip up the Government; and said, that that expectation being hopeless, they would not have many more of these petitions. But several more petitions had come, and he himself should have several to present. Another noble Lord (Suffield) had said, that the opposition proceeded merely on factious grounds. But he maintained that it proceeded from the great body of the Protestants of England, Ireland, and Scotland. It was a subject of the highest interest to all Protestants, and he hoped that their zeal would not be diminished.
The Earl of Winchilseahad presented and supported several petitions of this nature, and he must deny that he acted from factious motives: he was well assured that the statements in the petition were well founded. The number of children educated under the old system had, he believed, been much understated in the petition. The number had, in fact, in- 3 creased to 450,000. He trusted an opportunity would yet be afforded to discuss the subject.
The Earl of Radnorwished to know if the noble Lords opposite would support the truth of this allegation in the petition—"that the Society were engaged in teaching in the schools of Ireland the peculiar doctrines of the Church of Rome?" There certainly was no such provision in the new system.
The Earl of Winchilseasaid, that the allegation was made out in this manner. According to the Church of England, the Bible, whole and unlimited, was to be read in the schools; but, according to the Roman Catholic discipline, extracts, with accompanying commentaries only, were permitted; and as the Society made use of selections of the Scriptures, and not the whole work, the petition was justified in stating "that the peculiar doctrines of the Church of Rome" were enforced in the schools.
Lord Kingsaid, he had characterized the opposition on this subject as an outcry against the Government, and a part of the great plot which had been formed to overthrow the present Administration, and he had assumed, that as the plot had failed, there would be no more of these useless effusions. He was still of the same opinion; and he believed that the sense of the country was not opposed to the plans of his Majesty's Government for improving the education of the people of Ireland.
§ Lord Wynfordsaid, that the regulation of the schools, by which some of the children were compelled to go to mass, was an encouragement of the Roman Catholic religion.
The Marquess of Lansdownsaid, that, in his opinion, no objection could be taken to a regulation by which the children of each religion were obliged to attend their respective places of worship. The same regulation existed in the army, and surely noble Lords would not maintain that our military orders were intended to foster the Catholic religion.
§ The Duke of Richmondexplained, that when the order was first made in the army, permitting Roman Catholic soldiers to go to mass, the great majority of every regiment asserted they were Catholics, in order to escape attendance on the Sunday parade preparatory to church; but that was soon put an end to, by an order directing that the Roman Catholics should 4 be marched to their chapels with the same forms of discipline that the Protestants were marched to church. The soldiers of each religion soon fell into their respective ranks. So it was only proposed by the present system that the children should go to their own churches, and, if they did not, they would go to no church at all, which was, perhaps, what the noble Lords on the other side wanted.
The Earl of Malmesburythought, that under the present circumstances, the best plan would be, to abstain from making any parliamentary grant at all for the purpose of education in Ireland, and leave the different parties to educate their children in their own way and at their own expense.
The Marquess of Londonderrydenied that the petitions of the Protestants were useless effusions; and he thought, that the noble Baron opposite should pay the same respect to petitions presented from the Opposition side of the House as he claimed for those offered by his friends.
Lord Ellenboroughobserved, that certificates were required from the clergymen and the priests as to the attendance of the children at the churches and chapels. He wished to know whether this regulation had been enforced, and whether a certificate of attendance at church or mass was still required, and if the children were dismissed who did not produce it?
The Duke of Leinsterstated, that it had been found impossible to enforce it, as neither the Protestant clergy nor the priests could ascertain with any degree of accuracy whether the children attended or not.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, certainly the noble Duke's answer was not to be expected from Mr. Stanley's letter, and it proved that there was no religious education at all.
The Marquess of Lansdownsaid, that the Protestant clergy were authorised and invited to attend the schools, and to instruct the children in religion out of school hours, and he presumed, that the Protestant clergy would do their duty.
Lord Suffieldadmitted, that there were noble Lords on the other side who did not act from factious motives, but, at the same time, he was convinced that factious motives did exist in many quarters where the new system of education was most strenuously opposed. He had been informed, that under the old system, Protestant clergymen attended during school hours, and attempted to make proselytes among the Roman Catholic children. If that 5 was true, it must have been a great cause of irritation. The noble Lords opposite appeared to claim a monopoly of loyalty, attachment to the Constitution, and of religious feeling; but he did not concede to them that monopoly, for he claimed for himself a full share of loyalty, patriotism, and attachment to religion.
Lord Carberrysaid, that it was quite a mistake to suppose that in the schools of the Kildare-street Society Protestant clergymen attended at school hours and attempted to make proselytes. The Protestant clergy had too much sense to act in that manner.
The Bishop of Exetersaid, that the allegation in the petition, "that the peculiar tenets of the Church of Rome were taught by the Society," in his opinion, was fully established. The schools were open to the teaching of the Roman Catholic clergy two days in the week, and on those two days they could and did teach their own tenets.
The Marquess of Downshireconsidered this system as merely an experiment, and it was on that account only that he supported it; and he sincerely wished that it might be attended with the expected advantages. As President of the Kildare-street Society, he must take that opportunity of defending that Society from the charge of encouraging Protestant clergymen to make proselytes of the Roman Catholic children.
§ Petition laid on the Table.
The Earl of Rodenthen presented two other Petitions in favour of the Kildare-street Association, and their system of education, from Glasgow, and from Dumfries.
The Marquess of Lansdownsaid, that both in Glasgow and Edinburgh the feeling was strongly in favour of the system of education adopted by the Government. As a proof of it, a meeting was got up by the Principal of the College at Glasgow, to pass resolutions against the plan, and the motion of the reverend Doctor was negatived by an immense majority. A similar attempt had been made at Edinburgh, and the result was equally in favour of the Ministerial plan. Indeed, he had no hesitation in saying, that the great majority of the educated classes of society were in favour of the measure.
The Earl of Mintosaid, the general feeling of the people of Scotland was decidedly in favour of the new plan. They 6 looked upon education as one of the surest means of leading to a religious and moral life, and thought that it was advisable to yield a little to certain prejudices, for the purpose of obtaining a great good. In that part of the country from which he came, the feeling was strongly in favour of it. As a proof, an influential clergyman intimated his intention of moving resolutions in the Synod of Merse and Tiviotdale against the system; but, on finding that another clergyman meant to move counter resolutions, he abandoned his intention, because he was sure of being defeated.
§ Petition laid on the Table.