§ Viscount Melbourne, rose to move the second reading of a Bill, to appoint an officer who was to be invested 644 with the powers and duties at present exercised by the Governors of Comities. That officer was to be called a Deputy Lieutenant, and was to be appointed by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. It was found necessary to obtain a legislative enactment, for the creation of the intended Officer, because the Office of Governors had been sanctioned by an Act of Parliament. The effect of this measure would be, to establish in each county in Ireland, an Officer, through whom there should be a settled communication between the Government of Ireland and the Magistracy of each county. The want of such a connection occasioned great evils. The Government was compelled to rely upon the statements of a single Magistrate, or of a body of Magistrates, on matters in which those Magistrates themselves were interested—they being persons of whom the Government could know little or nothing. From these circumstances, the Government was necessarily liable to fall into great mistakes. He proposed this Bill as one step towards introducing into Ireland, the Constitutional Government of England; which could never be done without assimilating the institutions of the two countries. Another advantage would result, in the formation of the Magistracy. The Lord Chancellor of Ireland would, by this Officer, secure the means of informing himself of the qualifications of persons recommended for commissions of the peace. At present, a strict inquiry into the state of the Magistracy of Ireland was necessary, and this could be better effected by having a channel that could be relied on for obtaining the necessary information, than by the present means. In calling upon the House for its sanction to the appointment of another link of communication between the Government and the counties of Ireland, he did not question the discretion or the integrity with which the powers of the Lord Chancellor were exercised in that country. From the time of Lord Redesdale to the present day, the Lord Chancellors of Ireland had continually kept the happiness and the improvement of Ireland in view. It was but justice to the late Lord Chancellor, Sir Anthony Hart, to observe, that there never went into a country a public officer more free from prejudice, more disposed to kindness, or more devoted to justice, than that learned Judge. But yet, the 645 very pains which he had taken to secure the responsibility of those who recommended gentlemen as Magistrates, were found to aggravate rather than to diminish the evils which Sir Anthony Hart was desirous to remove. It was far from his intention to complain of Sir Anthony Hart, when he made that observation; but he made it, merely to show the necessity for having in Ireland a responsible person of known property, local knowledge, and integrity, to communicate with the Government respecting the persons who should be appointed to the Commission of the Peace.
§ The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that he entirely concurred in the reasoning' by which the noble Lord had supported the principle of the Bill. He was most willing to give the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland all the assistance in the power of Parliament to give him, to enable that great Officer to do his duty. He agreed with the noble Lord in thinking, that the present system, according to which there were in some counties five, in others three, and in others two Governors (there were very few in which there was only one), could not by possibility work well. They acted on no settled plan, and were sometimes in each other's way. Besides, many of these Governors were absentees, and yet persisted in retaining a power which they could not properly use, refusing, as they did, to discharge the duties of their office by Commission. On these grounds, he was disposed to approve of the present measure. He had certainly, at first, looked upon this Bill with much jealousy, fearing lest it might, have as an ulterior object, the abolition of the office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, which he knew to be a subject on which strong' opinions were entertained. He thought, that the greatest misfortune for this country which could happen in Ireland would be the removal of that great Officer. In Ireland, it was necessary to bring the Government as it were home to every man's door—it was necessary that Government should be on the spot to protect every individual— to be ever present and ever active to put down that bane of the country—the acts and power of the Demagogues. As he before said, he looked with jealousy on the Bill, and hoped it was not intended to introduce officers whose power would be such that they might be hereafter told there was no necessity for a Lord Lieutenant. 646 Adverting more particularly to the Bill before their Lordships, he begged to observe, that the office was military, and not judicial as had been insinuated, and he objected to having such military Officers distributed over the counties of Ireland. At the same time, as he was ready to admit there was no officer there equivalent to the Custos Rotulorum of this country, there might be some expediency in the proposed appointment. But there was one point which required explanation. The noble Lord (Melbourne) had omitted to state why the Lord Lieutenant of the County should have the appointment of Officers in the Militia; and gave notice, that he would move an Amendment in the Committee, to the effect that the Lord Lieutenant should enjoy no power to the prejudice of the rights of Militia Colonels actually existing. Great sacrifices had been made, and great expense had been incurred, by persons holding this situation during the war, and it would be extremely unjust to legislate against them upon the present occasion. In conclusion, he recommended, that the office of the Lord Lieutenant of Counties should be held by a patent during pleasure, and not for life.
§ Earl Greysaid, that as no objection was made to the general principle of the Bill, he would not take up their Lordships' time by any general defence of a system which was found to work so well in England and Scotland. He hoped no prejudice would be entertained against the Bill, because it might be supposed to be directed to an ulterior object. Upon the question respecting the Lord Lieutenancy of Ireland he would express no opinion. But he was ready to admit, that, at the present moment, and under existing circumstances, it would be highly inexpedient to give up the office. On what might be done hereafter he would not venture to speak; but he felt, that it ought not to be an objection to the Bill, that it would induce such a state of things as would enable them safely to dispense with an office, which, however useful it might be, and necessary at present, was undoubtedly attended with considerable expense. He himself, however, had no settled opinion upon the subject, further than to say, that at the present moment, the abolition of the Office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland would be inexpedient. With respect to what had been observed by the noble 647 Duke as to the case of the Militia Colonels be stated, that he had no objection to lend his best consideration to the question when it should be brought forward in the Committee, and he would give it all the attention to which everything was entitled which came from such a quarter. He, however, begged to remark, that he had a great aversion to considering such things as vested rights. In answer to the concluding observation of the noble Puke, he declared, that it was not intended that the Lord Lieutenants of Counties should hold their office for life. It would be contrary to all precedent and usage to make these Officers independent of the power which created them.
The Earl of Limericksaid, as an Irishman deeply interested in the prosperity of that country, he must express his entire approval of the measure proposed by the noble Secretary of State. He was aware that many difficulties and obstacles would interpose themselves to prevent the success of the Bill, and he had felt considerable difficulty as to the expediency of the appointment. He was still of opinion that other officers of great importance could not be entirely extinguished. The good to be attained by the Bill, would mainly depend on the persons appointed. If they were men of judgment, residents in the counties, and not connected with the political parties which existed, great benefit would be derived. He was the more free to make this declaration as he was no candidate for the office. He must also beg to say, that he did not in his conscience believe, that the establishment proposed to be abolished would have worked well if it had been continued. He entirely agreed' with the noble Duke (Wellington) on the point, and trusted with him, that the appointments of these Officers would not lead to the suppression of the Lord Lieutenancy of Ireland. That he should consider a dangerous measure, which ought not to be adopted from any notions of short-sighted economy. The habits of the people were such as frequently to require the most decisive steps to be instantly taken.
§ Viscount Melbournebegged to remind the noble Earl, that it was not proposed to abolish the office of Custos Rotulorum, but unite that office with the other.
Lord Plunkettsaid, he must bear testimony to the zeal and ability with which his predecessors had discharged their duty, 648 and he had endeavoured by every means in his power, by moving for Returns and otherwise, to shew the great services they had rendered the public. He should be happy if his endeavours to imitate them were successful.
§ Bill read a second time.