Lord Kingsaid, he rose to present several petitions upon the distresses of the country, and upon the subject of Reform. Some of these petitions were from Scotland, and some from England, but they all concurred in demanding cheap government, cheap law, cheap corn, cheap coals, a free trade, and a reform in Parliament. These summed up made the six great wants of the country at the present moment. There was something peculiar in one of the petitions from Scotland, to which he would presently advert. The first petition was from Ashfield, Nottingham, and it prayed for a Reform of all abuses in Church and State—a pretty extensive latitude of petitioning. The next was from Saffron-hill, and it was against the Assessed taxes. The next petition was from Scotland, and he would say, that if it were acknowledged that there were faults in the representation of England, all who made the acknowledgment must confess that the representation of Scotland 1291 was a perfect farce, a vile mockery, and in every point of view an insult to the understanding, to the moral sense, and national character of the people. The perfection of the Scotch representation was so great, that it exceeded the imagination of all mankind, and even of the noble Duke opposite (Wellington), to conceive any thing beyond it. He would now present two of the Scotch petitions, the one was from Arbroath, and the other was from the county of Renfrew. This latter petition was certainly not very intelligibly worded, and it contained a passage against which he had been informed that their Lordships might possibly take some objections. In the first place, the Petitioners entreated their Lordships to counsel the people, which was what their Lordships did not often do. But the next was, that their Lordships were not only to counsel the people, but they were to counsel them not to submit to unconstitutional representatives imposing unnecessary taxation. He did not think that this was language which ought to prevent the reception of the petition by the House, nor did he think it ought to induce their Lordships not to pay attention to the prayer of the petitioners. There were some parts of the petition which certainly were not very intelligible; but if their Lordships came to a resolution of rejecting petitions because they were not intelligible, he was afraid that the right of petitioning Parliament would be very sensibly abridged. He should now move, that the Petition be laid on the Table.
The Earl of Haddingtonsaid, that after the specimen which the noble Baron had given of the language of the petition, he thought it necessary to move that the petition be read at length.
§ The Petition having been read,
The Earl of Haddingtonrequested his noble Friend to consent to withdraw the petition. He had no wish to impede the practice of petitioning that House, and much less did he wish to throw any obstacle in the way of receiving the present petition, as it was the first of the sort that had as yet been received from a Scotch county; but he objected to the language of the petition, and he trusted that his noble friend would consent to withdraw it.
Lord Kingdid not think the petition of so objectionable a nature that he was authorized to withdraw it. The petition had been agreed to at a county meeting. It 1292 certainly did not look as if it came from Scotland, for parts of it were not intelligible, and it prayed their Lordships to counsel the people, the very last thing which their Lordships would do. As the petition likewise prayed for relief against excessive taxation, which part of the petition was perfectly intelligible, he could not consent to withdraw it.
§ Lord Duncanwould bear testimony to the increasing anxiety of the people of Scotland upon the subject of reform. The sense of the absolute necessity of a reform was gaining ground rapidly amongst every class of people throughout Scotland. The whole thirty county Members of Scotland were elected by less than 3,000 voters. The boroughs in Scotland were in a much worse condition than the counties with respect to the representation, and even for Edinburgh, which contained 130,000, the Member was returned by only thirty-three voters. Since the last census, the population of Scotland had much increased; and, taking the lower and middling orders of society throughout the country, there was as much information as in the same class of any population throughout Europe; and he would put it to their Lordships whether it was possible that such a people could be blind to their absolute degradation, under the present system of returning Members to Parliament. The people of Scotland, it was true, had hitherto been silent upon the subject, but let not noble Lords imagine that it was the silence of apathy, for it had been that of hopelessness and despair. His Majesty, most fortunately for the safety of the country, had been pleased to put at the head of the Government, a nobleman long celebrated for his wisdom, as well as for being the friend of reform; and this fact had revived the wishes of Scotland, which had previously been dormant. He would avow that he had confidence in the noble Earl's intention to effect a reform; and he knew that before many weeks their Lordships' Table would be covered with petitions from Scotland in support of that measure.
Lord Ellenboroughdid not see any reason why the petition should not be received by their Lordships. That was not the time to discuss questions of reform; and, therefore, he would say nothing on the subject, but as to the petition, as it came from a county of Scotland, and there was nothing very objectionable in its language, he for one would vote that it be received.
§ Earl Greythought that the petition might have been better worded. He was always extremely unwilling to take harsh or illiberal measures with respect to petitions, and in the present case he was very unwilling to object to the petition, but he could not but consider it improper for any petitioners to urge their Lordships to advise the people to resist the other House of Parliament as a body of representatives illegally and unconstitutionally chosen. This, in his opinion, was going rather beyond the usual language of petitions, and he should object to receiving it, on the ground that it called upon their Lordships to give advice to the people to exert a resistance to legal authority. He did hope that his noble friend would adopt the suggestion that had been thrown out, and withdraw the petition.
Lord Kingwould not wish to press the petition against the views of the noble Earl, and he would therefore consent to withdraw it.
The Earl of Haddingtonconcurred with the noble Earl that it was not the duty of the House to throw impediments in the way of petitions coming from Scotland or else where: but certainly a petition which called on their Lordships "to counsel the people to resist the other House of Parliament" could not be well received. There was a growing feeling in favour of reform in Scotland, particularly in the manufacturing districts; but the agricultural districts were as yet not affected by any strong feelings; and in those districts, at least, men's minds had not been drawn much to the subject. He could not, therefore, help thinking that the picture drawn of the state of feeling by a noble Lord near him was nearly or quite as much overcharged, as it had been undercharged by those who took the contrary side. Whatever the case might be in the manufacturing districts, in the country parts there was nothing like the same extensive feeling of reform which he thought, and, in his opinion, unhappily, existed in England. For his part he believed the old system worked well; and, though there were anomalies in it, perhaps it was the better on that account. At least the old system contented the people of England down to a late period; but any man must be stricken with more than judicial blindness who did not see that the mind of the country was changed on the subject, and that the question must be discussed until it 1294 was brought to the point which would give content to the respectable part of the community, and allow a stand to be made against those who did not seek the preservation of the constitution, but its destruction, and who looked not for reform, but for revolution. Whatever might be his abstract opinion on the subject, he would keep his mind open to reason and argument, and, while he avoided pledging himself to any side, he was determined to come to the consideration of reform with an anxious desire to give his confidence to the noble Lord.
The Earl of Fifesaid, that although the schoolmaster was abroad, yet the language in the petition was far from being that which was becoming the freeholders of a great Scotch county; but still he thought that considering the language used in that House, and in the other House, and in the petitions presented, and at public meetings, that a little more latitude might be given in the present case. He hoped, as the petition was withdrawn, that some one would suggest to those who were to send another in its stead, either here or to the other House, that it would be well to embody in the latter a recommendation to the election committees of the House to investigate the cases of alleged misconduct then before it, as they might be thereby enabled to give Ministers an opportunity of affording to large towns that representation to which it was admitted they were entitled.
§ Petition withdrawn.
Lord King ,in presenting a Petition of a similar nature from Perth, denied that the Scotch system of representation worked well for the people of Scotland; though it certainly worked well for those who enjoyed the monopoly of it, and who possessed thereby the power of laying on the taxes. He denied that the object of those who called for Reform was revolution, and he maintained, that the enlisting of the middle classes in the cause of Reform was the best and only security against revolution in the present character of the times.
The Earl of Haddingtonexplained, that his remark as to the working well of the present system of representation was not applied to Scotland particularly, but was applied to the general system of representation throughout the empire.
The Marquis of Butedenied, that the people of Scotland felt themselves oppressed or degraded, When he heard 1295 such a statement made in proof that the people of Scotland wanted reform, he altogether. doubted that they entertained any such desire. He contended, that Scotland was well satisfied with her Representatives, or that their Lordships would have heard to the contrary long since. It was a new thing to hear it said, that the people of Scotland were not well represented. [" Hear, hear," from Lord King.] The noble Lord might cry "Hear, hear," but, in fact, the old story was, that the people of Scotland were too well represented, for they had been accustomed to hear of nothing but Scotch jobs.
§ Lord Duncan,as a proof that the people of Scotland were not well represented, stated, that a few years ago the Lord Advocate and a majority of the Scotch Representatives voted against the removal of a stigma upon the Presbyterians.
The Earl of Darnleyconcurred with the noble Lord (Ellenborough) in the opinion that this was not the proper occasion for discussing the question of Reform. At the same time he wished to state, that he always felt convinced, that there was much in the representation of the people in the other House of Parliament which required reform. He was persuaded that the question of Reform could not now be evaded or delayed. He would advise his noble friend at the head of his Majesty's Government, and their Lordships, not to refrain, through the fear of going too far, from doing that which was necessary to satisfy the public mind in this eventful crisis. He was sure that their Lordships would have more to answer for than any other persons in the empire, if they did not satisfy the public expectations upon the question of Reform. To effect that there must be some sacrifices, and he was confident they would not satisfy the public expectations if the direct nomination of Members of the House of Commons by Peers were not taken away.
§ The Petition, which was from the Incorporation of Bakers, in Perth, laid on the Table.