§ Motion made, and Question proposed,
§ That, at this day's sitting, the Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Bill and the Government Resources and Accounts Bill may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. Allen.]
§ Question put:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 296, Noes 104.
868| Division No. 283] | [10 pm |
| AYES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Bayley, Hugh |
| Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N) | Beard, Nigel |
| Ainger, Nick | Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Begg, Miss Anne |
| Alexander, Douglas | Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough) |
| Allen, Graham | Benn, Hilary (Leeds C) |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Benton, Joe |
| Anderson, Janet (Rossendale) | Bermingham, Gerald |
| Atherton, Ms Candy | Best, Harold |
| Atkins, Charlotte | Betts, Clive |
| Austin, John | Blears, Ms Hazel |
| Banks, Tony | Blizzard, Bob |
| Barnes, Harry | Borrow, David |
| Barron, Kevin | Bradley, Keith (Withington) |
| Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) | Foster, Michael J (Worcester) |
| Bradshaw, Ben | Fyfe, Maria |
| Brinton, Mrs Helen | Gardiner, Barry |
| Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E) | George, Bruce (Walsall S) |
| Brown, Russell (Dumfries) | Gerrard, Neil |
| Burden, Richard | Godman, Dr Norman A |
| Burgon, Colin | Godsiff, Roger |
| Butler, Mrs Christine | Goggins, Paul |
| Caborn, Rt Hon Richard | Golding, Mrs Llin |
| Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Gordon, Mrs Eileen |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) |
| Cann, Jamie | Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) |
| Caplin, Ivor | Grocott, Bruce |
| Casale, Roger | Hain, Peter |
| Caton, Martin | Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) |
| Cawsey, Ian | Hall, Patrick (Bedford) |
| Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) | Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE) |
| Chaytor, David | Hanson, David |
| Chisholm, Malcolm | Heal, Mrs Sylvia |
| Clapham, Michael | Healey, John |
| Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields) | Hepburn, Stephen |
| Clark, Paul (Gillingham) | Heppell, John |
| Clarke, Charles (Norwich S) | Hesford, Stephen |
| Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Hill, Keith |
| Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge) | Hinchliffe, David |
| Clarke, Tony (Northampton S) | Home Robertson, John |
| Clelland, David | Hope, Phil |
| Clwyd, Ann | Hopkins, Kelvin |
| Coaker, Vernon | Howarth, Alan (Newport E) |
| Coffey, Ms Ann | Howarth, George (Knowsley N) |
| Cohen, Harry | Howells, Dr Kim |
| Connarty, Michael | Hoyle, Lindsay |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford) |
| Cooper, Yvette | Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) |
| Corbett, Robin | Humble, Mrs Joan |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Hurst, Alan |
| Corston, Jean | Iddon, Dr Brian |
| Cox, Tom | Illsley, Eric |
| Cranston, Ross | Jamieson, David |
| Crausby, David | Jenkins, Brian |
| Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley) | Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle) |
| Cryer, John (Hornchurch) | Johnson, Miss Melanie(Welwyn Hatfield) |
| Cummings, John | |
| Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S) | Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn) |
| Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire | Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Jones, Helen (Warrington N) |
| Darling, Rt Hon Alistair | Jones, Ms Jenny(Wolverh'ton SW) |
| Darvill, Keith | |
| Davey, Valerie (Bristol W) | Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak) |
| Davies, Geraint (Croydon C) | Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S) |
| Davis, Rt Hon Terry(B'ham Hodge H) | Keeble, Ms Sally |
| Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston) | |
| Dawson, Hilton | Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth) |
| Dean, Mrs Janet | Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree) |
| Denham, John | Khabra, Piara S |
| Dismore, Andrew | Kidney, David |
| Dobbin, Jim | Kilfoyle, Peter |
| Dobson, Rt Hon Frank | Kumar, Dr Ashok |
| Donohoe, Brian H | Ladyman, Dr Stephen |
| Doran, Frank | Lawrence, Mrs Jackie |
| Dowd, Jim | Laxton, Bob |
| Drew, David | Lepper, David |
| Eagle, Angela (Wallasey) | Leslie, Christopher |
| Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston) | Levitt, Tom |
| Edwards, Huw | Lewis, Ivan (Bury S) |
| Efford, Clive | Lewis, Terry (Worsley) |
| Ellman, Mrs Louise | Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C) |
| Ennis, Jeff | Lock, David |
| Fisher, Mark | Love, Andrew |
| Fitzpatrick, Jim | McAllion, John |
| Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna | McAvoy, Thomas |
| Flint, Caroline | McCabe, Steve |
| Flynn, Paul | McCafferty, Ms Chris |
| Foster, Rt Hon Derek | McCartney, Rt Hon Ian(Makerfield) |
| Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings) |
| McDonagh, Siobhain | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Macdonald, Calum | Roy, Frank |
| McDonnell, John | Ruane, Chris |
| McGuire, Mrs Anne | Ruddock, Joan |
| McIsaac, Shona | Russell, Ms Christine (Chester) |
| McKenna, Mrs Rosemary | Ryan, Ms Joan |
| McNamara, Kevin | Salter, Martin |
| MacShane, Denis | Sarwar, Mohammad |
| Mactaggart, Fiona | Savidge, Malcolm |
| McWalter, Tony | Sedgemore, Brian |
| McWilliam, John | Sheerman, Barry |
| Mahon, Mrs Alice | Short, Rt Hon Clare |
| Mallaber, Judy | Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S) |
| Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E) |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Smith, Angela (Basildon) |
| Marshall-Andrews, Robert | Smith, Miss Geraldine(Morecambe & Lunesdale) |
| Maxton, John | |
| Meacher, Rt Hon Michael | Smith, Jacqui (Redditch) |
| Meale, Alan | Smith, John (Glamorgan) |
| Merron, Gillian | Southworth, Ms Helen |
| Michael, Rt Hon Alun | Squire, Ms Rachel |
| Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley) | Starkey, Dr Phyllis |
| Miller, Andrew | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Mitchell, Austin | Stevenson, George |
| Moffatt, Laura | Stewart, David (Inverness E) |
| Moonie, Dr Lewis | Stewart, Ian (Eccles) |
| Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N) | Stoate, Dr Howard |
| Morley, Elliot | Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin |
| Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle(B'ham Yardley) | Stringer, Graham |
| Stuart, Ms Gisela | |
| Mountford, Kali | Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Mudie, George | |
| Mullin, Chris | Taylor, David (NW Leics) |
| Murphy, Jim (Eastwood) | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Naysmith, Dr Doug | Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W) |
| Norris, Dan | Timms, Stephen |
| O'Brien, Bill (Normanton) | Tipping, Paddy |
| Todd, Mark | |
| O'Hara, Eddie | Truswell, Paul |
| Olner, Bill | Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE) |
| Osborne, Ms Sandra | Turner, Neil (Wigan) |
| Perham, Ms Linda | Twigg, Stephen (Enfield) |
| Pickthall, Colin | Tynan, Bill |
| Plaskitt, James | Vis, Dr Rudi |
| Pollard, Kerry | Walley, Ms Joan |
| Pond, Chris | Ward, Ms Claire |
| Pound, Stephen | Wareing, Robert N |
| Powell, Sir Raymond | Watts, David |
| Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E) | Whitehead, Dr Alan |
| Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Prescott, Rt Hon John | Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen) |
| Primarolo, Dawn | Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy) |
| Prosser, Gwyn | Wills, Michael |
| Purchase, Ken | Winnick, David |
| Quin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce | Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C) |
| Quinn, Lawrie | Woolas, Phil |
| Radice, Rt Hon Giles | Worthington, Tony |
| Rammell, Bill | Wray, James |
| Rapson, Syd | Wyatt, Derek |
| Raynsford, Nick | |
| Reed, Andrew (Loughborough) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N) | Mr. Don Touhig and |
| Roche, Mrs Barbara | Mr. Tony McNulty. |
| NOES | |
| Allan, Richard | Brand, Dr Peter |
| Amess, David | Brazier, Julian |
| Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James | Brooke, Rt Hon Peter |
| Baldry, Tony | Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) |
| Ballard, Jackie | Burnett, John |
| Beith, Rt Hon A J | Burns, Simon |
| Blunt, Crispin | Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet) |
| Boswell, Tim | |
| Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W) | Clappison, James |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia | Collins, Tim |
| Cormack, Sir Patrick | MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew |
| Cotter, Brian | Maclean, Rt Hon David |
| Davey, Edward (Kingston) | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Davies, Quentin (Grantham) | Madel, Sir David |
| Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice) | Maude, Rt Hon Francis |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret | Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian |
| Fabricant, Michael | Moss, Malcolm |
| Fearn, Ronnie | O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury) |
| Flight, Howard | Öpik, Lembit |
| Foster, Don (Bath) | Ottaway, Richard |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman | Paterson, Owen |
| Fraser, Christopher | Portillo, Rt Hon Michael |
| Garnier, Edward | Prior, David |
| George, Andrew (St Ives) | Redwood, Rt Hon John |
| Gibb, Nick | Rendel, David |
| Gillen, Mrs Cheryl | Robathan, Andrew |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Robertson, Laurence |
| Gray, James | Ruffley, David |
| Green, Damian | Russell, Bob (Colchester) |
| Greenway, John | St Aubyn, Nick |
| Grieve, Dominic | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Gummer, Rt Hon John | Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk) |
| Hague, Rt Hon William | Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns) |
| Hammond, Philip | Spelman, Mrs Caroline |
| Harris, Dr Evan | Spicer, Sir Michael |
| Hayes, John | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Heald, Oliver | Syms, Robert |
| Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton) | |
| Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David | Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion) |
| Horam, John | Tredinnick, David |
| Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot) | Tyler, Paul |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark N) | Viggers, Peter |
| Jackson, Robert (Wantage) | Wells, Bowen |
| Kirkbride, Miss Julie | Whittingdale, John |
| Kirkwood, Archy | Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann |
| Laing, Mrs Eleanor | Wigley, Rt Hon Dafydd |
| Lait, Mrs Jacqui | Wilkinson, John |
| Lansley, Andrew | Willetts, David |
| Leigh, Edward | Willis, Phil |
| Letwin, Oliver | Wilshire, David |
| Lidington, David | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| Lilley, Rt Hon Peter | |
| Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham) | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas | Mr. Peter Luff and |
| McIntosh, Miss Anne | Mr. Andrew Stunell. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It has just come to the attention of some of us that the Government have snuck on to the Order Book for tomorrow a guillotine motion for the Criminal Justice (Mode of Trial) (No. 2) Bill. This is the 36th time in the course of the Prime Minister's premiership that the Government have sought to curtail debate—and not just on any old Bill, but on a Bill of huge constitutional importance.
The Government business managers have clearly become alarmed by the return of their out-of-touch Prime Minister from his £500 million jaunt to Japan. The motion demonstrates the arrogance and ineptitude of this appalling Government. Where is the Minister prepared to stand up for the interests of the British citizen rather than the ill- considered meanderings of this exhausted Administration?
When a Government overreach themselves, they attempt to suborn Parliament. Tyranny begins when they attempt to suborn the jury system. Can it be right that this appalling bunch of inept politicians seeks to destroy the 869 rights of the British citizen and to do so by a suppressed and curtailed debate tomorrow? Five hours for a Bill of huge constitutional importance—
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst)Order. What I am hearing so far from the hon. and learned Gentleman sounds suspiciously like a speech on a guillotine motion. What is the point of order for the Chair?
§ Mr. GarnierThe point of order ought to be clear not only to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but to all the Labour Members here. Is it in order for this appalling bunch of constitutional hooligans to demonstrate its total disregard for the rights of this House and the rights of citizens by, for the 36th time, curtailing debate on a Bill of huge constitutional importance?
The first attempt at this Bill was defeated in another place, after it was mauled in this House. Is it right that the Government should attempt to have another go by curtailing debate in this House? I urge you to stand up for the rights of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and the citizens whom we represent.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI think that the hon. and learned Gentleman must know that the Chair has no responsibility whatsoever for the business that is put before the House, and it is not anything on which the Chair can rule. The hon. and learned Gentleman has had his say and, no doubt, what he has said will be on the record and heard by members of the Government.
§ Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall)Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We share the concerns that have been expressed, but in far more temperate terms. Of course, I accept your ruling that you have no responsibility for the business put before the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker. However, may I put it to you that it is the Chair's function to protect the rights of Back Bench Members and all parties in the House?
I am sure, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you appreciate fully that the way in which the Government are handling the business this week is not in the interests of good scrutiny of legislation. In particular, the lack of proper consultation on the timetable motion for tomorrow is an affront to an extremely important piece of legislation that requires careful scrutiny. Even if you cannot rule on the business of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you can at least ensure that proper representations are made to the Government on the way in which they have handled this week's business.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI hope that I can reply in equally moderate terms to the hon. Gentleman. I have allowed the point of order to be somewhat extended so that concerns expressed by both Opposition parties can be fully heard, as they have been. However, the fact remains that what is put on the Order Paper is a matter for the Government. not the Chair.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I cannot rule on anything further. The plain fact is that the business of the House is not determined by the Chair, and I cannot go on entertaining extended points of order on the same point.
§ Sir Nicholas LyellFurther to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI have ruled on the point of order, and I cannot take any more points on the narrow matter before me. Unless there is an entirely fresh point of order, I cannot rule upon it—[Interruption.] Order. We must conduct ourselves in an orderly manner and I must at least hear what is being put to me by the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
§ Sir Nicholas LyellThe Bill has to move on to another place. It came out of its Committee as long ago as 6 June, which was more than six weeks ago. In the meantime, there have been many evenings when the House could have conducted proper debate on the matter. However, the Bill was not brought before the House and is now to be guillotined. It is rumoured that when it is pushed through the other place the Parliament Acts are to be used, which would be tyranny. Is not keeping these matters under control within the House's rules of order?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. It may be a matter for right hon. and hon. Members to argue these matters in an orderly way before the House. However, it cannot be taken further on a point of order this evening. There is nothing on which the Chair can rule, and I cannot hear more on that particular matter. I have allowed considerable rein for argument to intrude on a point of order so that both Opposition parties have had an opportunity to have their say on the matter, so I cannot take any more points of order on it.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI hope that this is genuinely a different point of order.
§ Mr. BottomleyOn a different point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I will not mention the Bill that has been discussed. Is it the convention of the House that the Leader of the House makes a business statement in advance so that those Members who are not here now may know what tomorrow's business is? Could the Leader be called to the House to make that statement now? She had notice of her action; she should be here now making a statement about tomorrow's business.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerIt is always helpful if the Leader of the House is able to make such a statement, but that rule is certainly not observed on every occasion. We must move on.
§ Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI hope that this is a different point of order.
§ Mr. LeighThis point is completely within your responsibility, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because it regards the 871 choice of speakers in tomorrow's debate. If, as we presume, the debate on the guillotine motion lasts for three hours, we will be left with an hour and three quarters to discuss the Bill. We will have an hour and three quarters to discuss legislation that will end a practice that has been prevalent in our country for seven centuries—I make that 15 minutes per century. [HON. MEMBERS: "That is new Labour."] That sums up new Labour. How will you divide up the time, Mr. Deputy Speaker, so that we get adequate debate with only 15 minutes for each century of tradition?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that the Chair cannot speculate on who will be called when at this stage the Chair does not even know who will apply to speak in the debate.