HC Deb 14 February 2000 vol 344 cc709-17
Sir George Young

I beg to move amendment No. 29, in page 8, leave out line 10 and insert— '(a) the electoral systems in use for the time being in the elections mentioned in section 19(3).'.

The Chairman

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 40, in page 8, leave out line 10 and insert— '(a) the electoral system to be used for each election held in the United Kingdom;'.

No. 41, in page 8, leave out line 11 and insert— '(b) the - systems of local government and national government in operation in the United Kingdom.'.

No. 33, in page 8, line 11, after second 'government', insert— 'in use in the United Kingdom'.

No. 30, in page 8, line 11, leave out from second 'government' to end of line 12.

No. 42, in page 8, line 12, at end insert— '( ) Any promotion of public awareness of electoral systems or systems of government under subsection (1) shall relate only to the electoral system that will be used at a particular election or the system of government to which the election is related, and shall not contain any material relating to alternative electoral systems or systems of government.'.

No. 31, in page 8, leave out lines 22 to 26.

No. 32, in page 8, line 28, leave out— '(whether by making grants or otherwise)'.

Sir George Young

I return to an issue that I raised on Second Reading—the duties of the commission to promote. Clause 11 makes it clear that education is not an optional power for the commission, but a duty.

The Neill committee did not envisage that function for the commission, and the Labour party did not propose that function in its evidence to the committee. Chapter 11 of the Neill report, which recommends the establishment of the commission, identified five roles for it: monitoring and recommending; an executive role registering the parties; an investigative role if something went wrong; an advisory role, mainly for political parties; and a narrow administrative role in the conduct of elections and referendums.

The role allotted to the commission in this clause was simply not recommended by Neill. Indeed, the report goes further and warns the Government against dumping extra responsibilities on the commission. Paragraph 11.4 of Neill says: We would only make the obvious point that the Election Commission cannot, as some of our witnesses seemed to believe, solve all problems and be a panacea for all ills. It is tempting, but not sensible, to say whenever in difficulty, 'Leave it to the Commission'. That is an approach we have sought to avoid in this report. Government, Parliament and others have to accept their responsibilities. The clause is a major departure from the Neill report, and a measure that it warned against.

Despite all that, in paragraphs 2.17 and 2.18 of their White Paper, Cm 4413, the Government sought to extend the Electoral Commission's remit. Not only did they want the commission to take over the existing work of Government Departments, such as encouraging people to register and reminding them when to apply for postal votes—I have no objection to that—but the draft Bill in the White Paper places the Electoral Commission under a duty to promote public awareness of electoral systems and matters, and of systems of local and national government and of the institutions of the European Union. I understand that that is part of the Government's citizenship education proposals, but it is wholly inappropriate to place that duty with the commission. As drafted, the Bill brings the Electoral Commission—a fully independent body, free of any suspicion of political partisanship, to use the Government's own words—right into issues of the fiercest political controversy. That is why I am against clause 11. The public must perceive the body to be totally impartial, but it cannot control, monitor, assess and report at the same time as promoting matters of intense political controversy.

Let me go through the provisions of clause 11(1). One deals with the promotion of public awareness of electoral systems and matters. Recently, the Jenkins commission report recommended a new electoral system: AV-plus. The Minister might like to tell the Committee what has happened to the commitment to a referendum on first past the post and AV-plus—does it remain a pledge, or is it just an aspiration?

Is the commission's role to promote public awareness of AV-plus? I do not think that it should be, not least because the commission may be the referee in a referendum on that issue. If it had in advance of that referendum promoted awareness of AV-plus, it would clearly undermine public confidence in its neutrality.

Is the commission's role to promote public awareness of other types of proportional representation? Is it to get involved in the heated debate about closed or open lists? We are not talking about informing people about the existing system, so that they understand how we are all elected—I personally would not object to that, although it goes beyond the commission's role as envisaged by Neill.

The clause allows the commission—indeed, it gives it a duty—to promote awareness of electoral systems and matters generally. That invites it into sensitive political areas because some systems advantage some parties and disadvantage others. The job of informing and persuading the public about alternatives to the present voting system is not a matter for impartial public servants who sit on the commission.

Clause 11(1)(b) refers to systems of local government and national government Is the commission to promote awareness of regional assemblies? Is it part of its remit to roll the pitch for a possible referendum on the establishment of such assemblies in certain regions? As the Bill stands, it has a duty to do that. If it did that, how could it be neutral in a subsequent referendum on setting up a regional assembly?

Mr. Mike O'Brien

It may assist the right hon. Gentleman if I say that, in terms of amendments Nos. 29, 40 and 42, we are not too far from him in principle. We might seek to bring something forward at a later stage.

Sir George Young

I am enormously grateful to the Minister for indicating a degree of flexibility on the amendments. In the interests of making progress, I will not press the case on clause 11(1)(b) as much as I was going to, but I want to say something about clause 11(1)(c), which is about the European Union.

The Committee may not be familiar with the Commission's preliminary draft budget for 2000. Nor until last week was I, but the Commission is to spend 45 million euros on general information and communication work concerning the European Union; that is less than half the budget of 103 million euros on information and communication. If one looks at the budget, one will see exactly how it is done. I quote from the European Commission budget document: these measures are designed to be an effective channel of communication and dialogue between the people of the European Union and the Community Institutions. They take account of specific national and regional characteristics, in close co-operation with the Member State authorities. The point is simple: if through our taxes we were already paying for the European Commission to do that promotional job, why should it be duplicated through the work of the commission?

Mr. Hogg

I am sure that my right hon. Friend would like to know that I support him on the matter. Will he also address the matter that is set out in clause 11(3)(b)? He will find that the commission has the power to make grants to other persons or bodies to carry out the purposes that are set out in subsection (1). That being so, the commission would have the power to make a grant to a body articulating a particular European view.

Sir George Young

Let me deal quickly with the second half of the group of amendments, which deals with grants. I have made clear my belief that the clause is misconceived and I am delighted to hear that the Minister shares my view to some extent.

Amendments Nos. 31 and 32 address the question of grants. To what sort of organisation is the commission to give money? Is it Charter 88 or the Electoral Reform Society? Both are highly reputable bodies, but neither is entirely neutral on the question of parliamentary election reform. It is difficult to think of any body to promote public awareness in that respect that is not in some way committed to one side of the argument. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) asked, will the commission give grants to pro-euro groups to promote awareness, and, if so, will it also give grants to anti-euro groups?

The whole issue is a minefield. I hope that the Government will have second thoughts and concede at least some of the amendments.

Mr. Mike O'Brien

I have already told the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young) that, on amendments Nos. 29, 40, 41 and 42, the distance between us is very small. Although we want there to be a debate on the Jenkins commission proposals, I want to make it clear that the Government do not intend that it should be for the Electoral Commission to promote public awareness of the relative merits of alternative voting systems.

The commission must exist to ensure the integrity of our electoral arrangements, to encourage participation and to root out impropriety. In doing so, it must be seen to be impartial. It would be injurious to the perceived neutrality of such a body if it were seen to adopt a position on the question of alternative voting systems. The Government therefore accept in principle the thrust of those amendments. However, we want to reflect further on how the Bill might best be amended so as to clarify the point at issue. In view of the commitment to look at this further, I should be grateful if amendment No. 29 were withdrawn and amendments Nos. 40, 41 and 42 not pressed.

On amendments Nos. 31 and 32, it would be a pity if the Electoral Commission, in carrying out its educational role, were limited to what it could produce by its own efforts and prevented from harnessing the efforts of others. We envisage that the commission might want to make grants available to other organisations, such as the Citizenship Foundation. We acknowledge the fear that grants might go to politically partisan organisations with an axe to grind, but it is certainly not the intention to subsidise polemics. We think that we can rely on the commission's good sense.

If the Commission's powers are circumscribed along the lines proposed in amendments Nos. 29, 40, 41 and 42, which I have in principle accepted, the scope of the grant-making power would automatically be contracted accordingly. Therefore, it would be outside the powers of the commission to make a grant to an organisation to enable it to promote alternative voting systems. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman is also content not to press amendments Nos. 31 and 32.

It is important that the scope of the commission's voter education role should extend to explaining the institutions of the European Union to voters. One of the reasons why we have poor turnouts at elections is that people fail to see the relevance of the body being elected. That applies as much to the European Parliament as it does to local councils. Given the turnout at the last European elections, there is clearly much work to be done. I therefore urge the right hon. Gentleman not to press amendments Nos. 30 and 33.

Mr. Maclean

It has been an extraordinary day: the Government have accepted, in principle, numerous amendments tabled by my right hon. and erudite Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) and myself. It was certainly a first when, in a spirit of helpfulness and to ensure that the Committee proceeded at a reasonable pace, I decided not to speak to the amendments standing in my name and to let Ministers consider them as they stood. I have never before heard a Minister accept all my amendments even before I have spoken to them. It would therefore be ungracious of me to speak at any length now—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]— but I could be persuaded to do so.

It is kind of the Minister to speak in such glowing terms of amendments Nos. 40, 41 and 42. They are yet another series of amendments that the Government have decided are wise and acceptable to them. Ministers have realised that, without the amendments, we would be faced with a diabolical Bill. I am happy not to press the amendments standing in my name.

11 pm

Mr. Stunell

We oppose the amendments. We are sorry that the Government are moving to accept them, although we fully understand the reasoning that has been advanced. On another day and at an earlier time, there may be an opportunity to engage in the debate that we are all skirting around, about the relative merits of various voting systems.

The shadow Leader of the House remarked that one system would advantage one party and disadvantage another. In the debate about electoral systems and in the philosophy underlying the Electoral Commission and the Bill, the essential element is the need to strike a balance, not just between different political parties but between different political interests in the United Kingdom. We lay great emphasis on the fair treatment and representation of the people of the United Kingdom, even if that sometimes costs parties the power and influence that they would like individually to exercise.

The real issue to which the clause and the amendments are directed is whether the Electoral Commission can succeed in getting people more involved in and excited by politics. We must face the fact that people are increasingly disenchanted with the existing political process.

Mr. Malcolm Bruce

My hon. Friend makes an important point. In the elections in Scotland nine months ago, in which there was a constituency vote and a list vote, electors had considerable difficulty understanding that the list vote did not require them to vote for a different party from that for which they voted in the constituency vote, if they did not wish to do so. People felt that they were obliged to vote for two different parties. It is right and proper that an Electoral Commission should advise people of their full rights of choice.

Mr. Stunell

I agree with my hon. Friend, who has direct practical experience of the situation in Scotland. We all have direct practical experience of the impact of the European election results last year.

One of the disadvantages of amendment No. 29 is that if the House were to examine the voting system used in the European elections, which I understand many Opposition Members want us to do, the Electoral Commission, by virtue of amendment No. 29, could not take part in explaining the new system.

We are in danger of having a reverse section 28 debate which rules out any debate about electoral reform or change, and prevents the major institution established by the Bill from playing a part in that process.

There are occasions when one knows that the House is not with one in these matters, but it is still necessary to say in the plainest and most direct terms that the draft legislation contained an opportunity which I am sorry to see the Minister withdrawing today.

Mr. Hogg

The key difference between the views of the Opposition and the clause as formulated is this: we have no objection to the commission being able to explain existing institutions, but we object to giving to the commission the power to institute debate about alternative systems.

It would be churlish of me not to acknowledge that the Minister has said that he will review the matter. If he is prepared to meet the precise point articulated by the Opposition, I fancy that we will be content. If not, I fancy that his decision will be reversed in another place.

Sir George Young

The Minister has been enormously helpful. He showered me with concessions before I had even reached the relevant part of my speech. I do not want to appear ungrateful, but he made no concessions on amendment No. 30, which he invited me to withdraw. My hon. Friends and I feel strongly about that amendment and, at the appropriate point, we would like to divide the House on it.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed: No. 30, in page 8, line 11, leave out from second 'government' to end of line 12.—[Sir George Young.]

The Committee divided: Ayes 126, Noes 309.

Division No. 73] [11.5 pm
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey) Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Amess, David Gray, James
Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James Green, Damian
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) Greenway, John
Baldry, Tony Grieve, Dominic
Bercow, John Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Beresford, Sir Paul Hammond, Philip
Blunt, Crispin Hawkins, Nick
Boswell, Tim Hayes, John
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W) Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas
Brady, Graham Horam, John
Brazier, Julian Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Browning, Mrs Angela Hunter, Andrew
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) Jack, Rt Hon Michael
Burns, Simon Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Cash, William Jenkin, Bernard
Chope, Christopher Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Clappison, James Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh) Leigh, Edward
Collins, Tim Letwin, Oliver
Cormack, Sir Patrick Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Cran, James Lidington, David
Davies, Quentin (Grantham) Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Day, Stephen Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Donaldson, Jeffrey Loughton, Tim
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen MacGregor, Rt Hon John
Duncan, Alan McIntosh, Miss Anne
Duncan Smith, Iain Maclean, Rt Hon David
Evans, Nigel McLoughlin, Patrick
Faber, David Madel, Sir David
Fabricant, Michael Malins, Humfrey
Fallon, Michael Maude, Rt Hon Francis
Flight, Howard Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian
Forth, Rt Hon Eric May, Mrs Theresa
Fox, Dr Liam Moss, Malcolm
Fraser, Christopher Nicholls, Patrick
Gale, Roger Norman, Archie
Garnier, Edward O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Gibb, Nick Page, Richard
Gill, Christopher Paice, James
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael Taylor, Sir Teddy
Prior, David Townend, John
Randall, John Tredinnick, David
Redwood, Rt Hon John Trend, Michael
Robertson, Laurence Tyrie, Andrew
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxboume) Viggers, Peter
Ross, William (E Lond'y) Walter, Robert
Ruffley, David Waterson, Nigel
St Aubyn, Nick Whitney, Sir Raymond
Sayeed, Jonathan Whittingdale, John
Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian Wilkinson, John
Shepherd, Richard Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk) Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Spelman, Mrs Caroline Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Spicer, Sir Michael Yeo, Tim
Spring, Richard Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Streeter, Gary
Swayne, Desmond Tellers for the Ayes:
Syms, Robert Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Tapsell, Sir Peter and
Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton) Mr. Peter Luff.
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane Coffey, Ms Ann
Ainger, Nick Cohen, Harry
Allan, Richard Coteman, Iain
Allen, Graham Colman, Tony
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale) Connarty, Michael
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Atherton, Ms Candy Cooper, Yvette
Atkins, Charlotte Corbett, Robin
Austin, John Corbyn, Jeremy
Banks, Tony Corston, Jean
Barnes, Harry Cotter, Brian
Barron, Kevin Cox, Tom
Bayley, Hugh Crausby, David
Beard, Nigel Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Benn, Hilary (Leeds C) Cummings, John
Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield) Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Bennett, Andrew F Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Benton, Joe Darvill, Keith
Bermingham, Gerald Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Berry, Roger Davidson, Ian
Belts, Clive Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Blears, Ms Hazel Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Borrow, David Dawson, Hilton
Bradley, Keith (Withington) Dean, Mrs Janet
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) Denham, John
Bradshaw, Ben Dismore, Andrew
Brinton, Mrs Helen Dobbin, Jim
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) Donohoe, Brian H
Burden, Richard Doran, Frank
Burgon, Colin Drew, David
Butler, Mrs Christine Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth) Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife) Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Efford, Clive
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) Ellman, Mrs Louise
Cann, Jamie Ennis, Jeff
Caplin, Ivor Etherington, Bill
Caton, Martin Field, Rt Hon Frank
Cawsey, Ian Fisher, Mark
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) Fitzpatrick, Jim
Clapham, Michael Fitzsimons, Loma
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields) Flint, Caroline
Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands) Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Clark, Paul (Gillingham) Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S) Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge) Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S) Fyfe, Maria
Clelland, David Galloway, George
Coaker, Vernon Gapes, Mike
George, Andrew (St Ives) McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr Ian McDonagh, Siobhain
Gilroy, Mrs Linda Macdonald, Calum
Godman, Dr Norman A McDonnell, John
Godsiff, Roger McFall, John
Goggins, Paul McIsaac, Shona
Golding, Mrs Llin McKenna, Mrs Rosemary
Gordon, Mrs Eileen Mackinlay, Andrew
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) McNamara, Kevin
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) McNulty, Tony
Grocott, Bruce MacShane, Denis
Grogan, John Mactaggart, Fiona
Hain, Peter McWalter, Tony
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) McWilliam, John
Hall, Patrick (Bedford) Mahon, Mrs Alice
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE) Mallaber, Judy
Hanson, David Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Heal, Mrs Sylvia Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Healey John Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome) Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich) Meale, Alan
Hepburn, Stephen Merron, Gillian
Heppell John Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Hesford, Stephen Miller, Andrew
Hewitt, Ms Patricia Mitchell, Austin
Hill, Keith Moffatt, Laura
Hinchliffe, David Moonie Dr Lews
Hope, Phil Moran, Ms Margaret
Hopkins, Kelvin Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)
Morley, Elliot
Howarth, Alan (Newport E) Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford) Mountford, Kali
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) Mudie, George
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N) Mullin, Chris
Humble, Mrs Joan Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Hurst, Alan Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Hutton, John Naysmith, Dr Doug
Iddon, Dr Brian O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
Illsley, Eric O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Ingram, Rt Hon Adam O'Hara Eddie
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough) Olner, Bill
Jenkins, Brian Öpik, Lembit
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle) Pearson, Ian
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield) Pendry, Tom
Pickthall, Colin
Jones, Helen (Warrington N) Pike, Peter L
Jones, Ms Jenny (Wolverh'ton SW) Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) Pond, Chris
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak) Pope, Greg
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S) Pound, Stephen
Jowell, Rt Hon Ms Tessa Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Keeble, Ms Sally Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston) Primarolo, Dawn
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth) Prosser, Gwyn
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree) Purchase, Ken
Kidney, David Quin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce
Kilfoyle, Peter Quinn, Lawrie
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth) Radice, Rt Hon Giles
Kumar, Dr Ashok Rammell, Bill
Ladyman, Dr Stephen Rapson, Syd
Laxton, Bob Raynsford, Nick
Lepper, David Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Leslie, Christopher Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)
Levitt, Torn Rendel, David
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S) Roche, Mrs Barbara
Lewis, Terry (Worsley) Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff
Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen Rooney, Terry
Linton, Martin Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C) Roy, Frank
Lock, David Ruane, Chris
Love, Andrew Ruddock, Joan
McAvoy, Thomas Russell, Bob (Colchester)
McCabe, Steve Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)
Ryan, Ms Joan Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Salter, Martin Timms, Stephen
Sanders, Adrian Tipping, Paddy
Savidge, Malcolm Todd, Mark
Sawford, Phil Touhig, Don
Sedgemore, Brian Trickett, Jon
Shaw, Jonathan Truswell, Paul
Sheerman, Barry Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S) Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Singh, Marsha Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Skinner, Dennis Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E) Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Smith, Angela (Basildon) Walley, Ms Joan
Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecombe & Lunesdale) Ward, Ms Claire
Wareing, Robert N
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch) Watts, David
Smith, John (Glamorgan) White, Brian
Snape, Peter Whitehead, Dr Alan
Southworth, Ms Helen Wicks, Malcolm
Spellar, John Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Starkey, Dr Phyllis Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Steinberg, Gerry Winnick, David
Stewart, Ian (Eccles) Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Stoate, Dr Howard Wise, Audrey
Stuart, Ms Gisela Woodward, Shaun
Stunell, Andrew Woolas, Phil
Sutcliffe, Gerry Wright Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics) Tellers for the Noes:
Taylor, Matthew (Truro) Mr. Robert Ainsworth and
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W) Mr. Jim Dowd.

Question accordingly negatived.

Clause 11 ordered stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 12 to 18 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

To report progress and ask leave to sit again.—[Mr. Mike Hall.]

Committee report progress; to sit again tomorrow.