§ Mr. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington)I beg to move amendment No. 27, in page 48, line 33, at end insert
'but the amount of the grant shall increase by at least the annual rate of the Retail Price Index in each year beginning from the Authority's second financial year.'.In briefly outlining the purpose of the amendment, it may be instructive if I look first at the history of London Underground. As we all know, investment in London Underground has gone up and down unpredictably over many years. We now understand that, in 2000, investment in London Underground will stop altogether, according to the Government's spending plans.The amendment would provide some stability in terms of investment and planning. We must avoid a return to the present situation, where London Underground has a substantial backlog of repairs. Some £7 billion-worth of repairs have built up, and that would not have occurred had a guaranteed level of investment or grant been available to London Transport over a long period.
The House could argue about the appropriate level of resources, and about whether the retail prices index is the right level. However, it cannot be disputed that we need a guaranteed level of funding over a long period to enable London Underground and the bus companies to plan their investment programmes without having to second-guess what might happen in four or five years.
No doubt the Government are taking into account the revenues that will be accrued through congestion charges and workplace car parking charges. However, those sources of revenue are extremely unpredictable. In theory, if congestion charges and workplace car parking charges do their job, one would expect that, in five, 10 or 15 years—when we have a completely integrated, comfortable and safe public transport system—no-one will be driving their cars at all, and the revenue from such charges will dry up. That reinforces the need for a level of funding to be provided over a long period, which is the purpose of the amendment.
§ Ms Glenda JacksonThe Government amendments in this group change in various ways the financial 771 arrangements for the GLA in part III of the Bill. I trust that it will be in order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for me to outline briefly our proposals with regard to concessionary fares within London. That is an issue of particular importance to the elderly and the disabled.
§ Mr. Simon HughesOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I think that the Minister is speaking to the previous group of amendments. Amendment No. 27 is about the amount of the grant. If she is not, I apologise, but her remarks do not appear to relate to the one and only amendment that has been selected.
Mr. Deputy SpeakerThat is not a point of order for the Chair. No doubt the Minister will have heard what the hon. Gentleman has said.
§ Ms JacksonThank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am aware that the previous group of amendments was not spoken to, and I am aware of the group to which we are speaking. It seems appropriate in the circumstances briefly to detail our proposals with regard to concessionary fares for the elderly and disabled people in London, as we are dealing with finance for Transport for London. I will touch on the amendment that has been tabled by the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Brake) later.
The present legislative arrangements for travel concessions are provided by the London boroughs, and have been in place for almost 15 years. Clearly, the Bill must make provision for those travel concessions to continue. We have given careful consideration to a number of proposals for improving the scheme. As a result, we will table amendments in the other place that will update the scheme, thus helping to maintain its stability.
For the statutory reserve scheme, the start and finish times will be brought into line with those currently in the voluntary scheme. Arrangements for determining the costs of the reserve scheme will be clarified. We are also planning to give the boroughs powers to set up a statutory joint committee dealing with concessionary fares, which will have the option of taking decisions on the basis of qualified majority voting.
§ Mr. Simon HughesOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This is clearly the speech for the previous group of amendments, which the guillotine prevented us from debating. We are happy—if you will allow it, Mr. Deputy Speaker—to respond to the Minister's remarks. I hope that if the Minister is having the latitude to speak on what is clearly the previous group of amendments, the same latitude will be afforded to others, and we will not just have the Minister trying to justify the Government's difficult-to-justify position without my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Brake) putting his case.
Mr. Deputy SpeakerThe Minister stated that she craved the indulgence of the House to refer briefly to wider issues. The Minister ought now to concentrate her remarks on amendment No. 27, as she has gone as far as she ought to on other matters.
§ Ms JacksonI am grateful for your advice, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
772 Financial arrangements are tailored to the model of London governance for which the Bill provides. There will be a strong executive mayor and an assembly to provide scrutiny. There will be four new functional bodies, dedicated to delivering key Londonwide services. Transport for London and the London development agency will be separate corporate bodies, directly accountable to the mayor, who will set their budgets and strategies and appoint their boards. The Metropolitan police authority and the London fire and emergency planning authority will be authorities in their own right. The mayor will set their budgets and appoint assembly members who will form the majority of members of each authority.
The financial framework in part III provides the mayor with flexibility to allocate resources in line with mayoral priorities. It ensures that the GLA and each of the functional bodies have responsibility for managing their own financial affairs. It makes it easier for Londoners to understand how they contribute, and it fulfils our commitment that the GLA would be subject to the local government finance requirements with modifications needed to reflect its undoubtedly unique role.
The GLA transport grant will draw together money that the Government now pay to all Transport for London's predecessor bodies and to the London boroughs through transport policies and programmes. This will provide the baseline for the first year's budget. After the first year, the Secretary of State will determine the amount of grant after consulting with the mayor. In other words, they will negotiate.
The mayor will make clear what level of resources central Government must provide to deliver the transport strategy and what the effect of inflation will be. The Secretary of State will consider the mayor's proposals against the demands of the rest of the country. That is the right way for the level of transport grant to be determined. Increases must be properly justified.
Amendment No. 27 would be entirely counterproductive. It could deter the Secretary of State from making a one-off additional payment to the mayor; for example, to provide funding for a significant project. If the amendment were accepted, what Secretary of State would be prepared ever to provide additional amounts if the Government had to continue and increase those large sums long after the need for them had passed? It is hardly an incentive to increase resources, and it is most certainly not a recipe for best value. The Government have made available an extra £1.8 billion over the next three years to deliver our integrated transport strategy. We need, and will take, no lessons from others about the importance of proper funding for transport. I therefore ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the amendment.
§ Mr. BrakeI am afraid that the Minister failed to respond to our principal concern, that the GLA should be provided with a guaranteed level of funding over the time frame that is required for investment and planning purposes. With the Government's proposals, the uncertainties will remain.
I am not at all satisfied with the Minister's response, so we will press the amendment to a vote.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 19, Noes 285.
775| Division No. 163] | [7.40 pm |
| AYES | |
| Allan, Richard | Hughes, Simon (Southwark N) |
| Ballard, Jackie | Keetch, Paul |
| Beith, Rt Hon A J | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Brake, Tom | Llwyd, Elfyn |
| Brand, Dr Peter | Russell, Bob (Colchester) |
| Breed, Colin | Sanders, Adrian |
| Burnett, John | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Cable, Dr Vincent | Willis, Phil |
| Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies | |
| (NE Fife) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Davey, Edward (Kingston) | Mr. Paul Tyler and |
| Heath, David (Somerton & Frome) | Dr. Jenny Tonge. |
| NOES | |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Cranston, Ross |
| Allen, Graham | Crausby, David |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley) |
| Anderson, Janet (Rossendale) | Cryer, John (Hornchurch) |
| Atherton, Ms Candy | Cummings, John |
| Atkins, Charlotte | Cunliffe, Lawrence |
| Austin, John | Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S) |
| Banks, Tony | Darling, Rt Hon Alistair |
| Barnes, Harry | Darvill, Keith |
| Barron, Kevin | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
| Bayley, Hugh | Davies, Geraint (Croydon C) |
| Beard, Nigel | Dawson, Hilton |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret | Dean, Mrs Janet |
| Bell, Martin (Tatton) | Denham, John |
| Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough) | Dismore, Andrew |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Dobbin, Jim |
| Bennett, Andrew F | Doran, Frank |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Dowd, Jim |
| Berry, Roger | Drew, David |
| Best, Harold | Drown, Ms Julia |
| Betts, Clive | Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth |
| Blackman, Liz | Eagle, Angela (Wallasey) |
| Blears, Ms Hazel | Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston) |
| Blizzard, Bob | Efford, Clive |
| Blunkett, Rt Hon David | Ellman, Mrs Louise |
| Boateng, Paul | Ennis, Jeff |
| Borrow, David | Etherington, Bill |
| Bradley, Keith (Withington) | Field, Rt Hon Frank |
| Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) | Fisher, Mark |
| Bradshaw, Ben | Fitzpatrick, Jim |
| Brinton, Mrs Helen | Fitzsimons, Lorna |
| Buck, Ms Karen | Flint, Caroline |
| Burden, Richard | Flynn, Paul |
| Byers, Rt Hon Stephen | Follett, Barbara |
| Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth) | Foster, Rt Hon Derek |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings) |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Fyfe, Maria |
| Cann, Jamie | Galloway, George |
| Caplin, Ivor | Gapes, Mike |
| Casale, Roger | Gardiner, Barry |
| Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) | George, Bruce (Walsall S) |
| Clapham, Michael | Gerrard, Neil |
| Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields) | Gibson, Dr Ian |
| Clarke, Tony (Northampton S) | Godsiff, Roger |
| Clelland, David | Goggins, Paul |
| Clwyd, Ann | Golding, Mrs Llin |
| Coffey, Ms Ann | Gordon, Mrs Eileen |
| Cohen, Harry | Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) |
| Coleman, Iain | Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) |
| Colman, Tony | Grocott, Bruce |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Grogan, John |
| Corbett, Robin | Gunnell, John |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) |
| Corston, Ms Jean | Hall, Patrick (Bedford) |
| Cousins, Jim | Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet |
| Heal, Mrs Sylvia | Meale, Alan |
| Healey, John | Merron, Gillian |
| Henderson, Ivan (Harwich) | Milburn, Rt Hon Alan |
| Hepburn, Stephen | Miller, Andrew |
| Heppell, John | Mitchell, Austin |
| Hesford, Stephen | Moffatt, Laura |
| Hewitt, Ms Patricia | Morley, Elliot |
| Hill, Keith | Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
| Hinchliffe, David | Mountford, Kali |
| Hodge, Ms Margaret | Mudie, George |
| Hoey, Kate | Mullin, Chris |
| Hood, Jimmy | Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck) |
| Hoon, Geoffrey | O'Brien, Bill (Normanton) |
| Hope, Phil | O'Brien, Mike (N Warks) |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Olner, Bill |
| Hoyle, Lindsay | Organ, Mrs Diana |
| Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) | Palmer, Dr Nick |
| Humble, Mrs Joan | Pearson, Ian |
| Hutton, John | Pendry, Tom |
| Iddon, Dr Brian | Perham, Ms Linda |
| Illsley, Eric | Pickthall, Colin |
| Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead) | Pike, Peter L |
| Jenkins, Brian | Plaskitt, James |
| Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle) | Pollard, Kerry |
| Johnson, Miss Melanie | Pond, Chris |
| (Welwyn Hatfield) | Pope, Greg |
| Jones, Helen (Warrington N) | Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E) |
| Jones, Ms Jenny | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
| (Wolverhlon SW) | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak) | Prosser, Gwyn |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S) | Purchase, Ken |
| Jowell, Rt Hon Ms Tessa | Quinn, Lawrie |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Radice, Giles |
| Keeble, Ms Sally | Rapson, Syd |
| Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston) | Raynsford, Nick |
| Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth) | Reed, Andrew (Loughborough) |
| Kelly, Ms Ruth | Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW) |
| Kemp, Fraser | Roche, Mrs Barbara |
| Khabra, Piara S | Rooker, Jeff |
| Kidney, David | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth) | Ruane, Chris |
| King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green) | Ruddock, Joan |
| Kingham, Ms Tess | Russell, Ms Christine (Chester) |
| Kumar, Dr Ashok | Ryan, Ms Joan |
| Ladyman, Dr Stephen | Salter, Martin |
| Lawrence, Ms Jackie | Sawford, Phil |
| Laxton, Bob | Sheerman, Barry |
| Lepper, David | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Leslie, Christopher | Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S) |
| Levitt, Tom | Skinner, Dennis |
| Lewis, Ivan (Bury S) | Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E) |
| Lewis, Terry (Worsley) | Smith, Angela (Basildon) |
| Linton, Martin | Smith, Miss Geraldine |
| Livingstone, Ken | (Morecambe & Lunesdale) |
| Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C) | Smith, Jacqui (Redditch) |
| Lock, David | Smith, John (Glamorgan) |
| Love, Andrew | Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Snape, Peter |
| McCabe, Steve | Soley, Clive |
| McCafferty, Ms Chris | Speller, John |
| McDonagh, Siobhain | Squire, Ms Rachel |
| McDonnell, John | Starkey, Dr Phyllis |
| Mackinlay, Andrew | Steinberg, Gerry |
| McNulty, Tony | Stewart, Ian (Eccles) |
| Mactaggart, Fiona | Stoate, Dr Howard |
| McWalter, Tony | Stott, Roger |
| McWilliam, John | Straw, Rt Hon Jack |
| Mahon, Mrs Alice | Stringer, Graham |
| Mallaber, Judy | Stuart, Ms Gisela |
| Mandelson, Rt Hon Peter | Sutcliffe, Gerry |
| Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S) | Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann |
| Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury) | (Dewsbury) |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Teylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S) |
| Martlew, Eric | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Maxton, John | Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W) |
| Meacher, Rt Hon Michael | Timms, Stephen |
| Tipping, Paddy | Whitehead, Dr Alan |
| Todd, Mark | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Trickett, Jon | Williams, Rt Hon Alan |
| Truswell, Paul | (Swansea W) |
| Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE) | Wills, Michael |
| Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown) | Winnick, David |
| Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk) | Wise, Audrey |
| Twigg, Derek (Halton) | Wood, Mike |
| Twigg, Stephen (Enfield) | Worthington, Tony |
| Vaz, Keith | Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth) |
| Vis, Dr Rudi | Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock) |
| Walley, Ms Joan | Wyatt, Derek |
| Ward, Ms Claire | |
| Wareing, Robert N | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Watts, David | Mr. David Jamieson and |
| White, Brian | Jane Kennedy. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.