§ '. Regulations made under this section may prescribe circumstances in which—
- (a) information held by any authority under any provisions of this Act, or any other Act amended by this Act, may be used to identify persons who are entitled to receive benefit, for the purposes of determining that entitlement; and
- (b) information supplied under the provisions of this Act or any other Act amended by this Act for the purposes of ascertaining benefit entitlement may be used by an authority or by the Secretary of State for the purposes of verifying another benefit claim.
§ (2) Regulations under this section shall be by statutory instrument, which shall be laid before Parliament in draft and which shall be subject to approval by resolution of each House before being made.'.—[Mr. Denham.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ 6 pm
§ Mr. John Denham (Southampton, Itchen)I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
The new clause reflects the clear principles that Labour consistently advocated in Committee: we must be tough on fraud, tough on cheats and tough on crooked landlords, not only because fraud and theft are wrong, but because each pound taken away in fraud could have been used to help those who are entitled. The welfare system should deliver help only to those who need it, but we must ensure that it does indeed deliver that help.
Some of the powers in the Bill to tackle benefit fraud could also be used to help to identify and encourage claims from and payments to those who are entitled. The 841 Bill rightly contains far-reaching powers, but Labour Members have difficulty understanding the Government's objections to using similar techniques to help people to receive the benefits to which they are entitled. The new clause would do that. It would make clear the ability to pass information from one Department to another and between Departments and local authorities, to help to identify people who have an entitlement to benefit.
§ Mrs. Anne CampbellWill my hon. Friend join me in congratulating my local newspaper, the Cambridge Evening News, on its benefits take-up campaign? Its front-page story on 27 January featured Mr. and Mrs. Gibson, who were able to claim several thousand pounds of entitlement that they had not known about.
§ Mr. DenhamI have no hesitation in applauding that initiative in Cambridge and those in many other areas. My local authority's benefits take-up week was responsible for identifying a further £80,000 of unclaimed benefit. I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that there is a sharp contrast between such local initiatives and the Government's record.
The new clause would make clear the ability of Departments and local authorities to share information to help to identify people with an entitlement to benefit and, under carefully controlled circumstances set by the Secretary of State, would make some claims for benefit simpler by specifying that information accepted as valid by one agency, perhaps a local authority housing benefit department, could be accepted as valid by, for example, the Benefits Agency, for another benefit.
It is an historical accident that the welfare system is divided into so many units that do not communicate with one another. If history had been different, this debate might not have been necessary. A seamless, unified benefits system could have been created, capable of delivering a person's entire entitlement in one exercise. We do not have such a system, but there is a case for identifying circumstances in which that would be a desirable way forward. The new clause would help with that.
We should be clear about the problems that need to be tackled. One million pensioners do not receive the income support to which they are entitled—that figure represents a sharp rise on the previous estimate of 700,000—and go without an average of £14 a week, not for one or two weeks or for one or two months, but year in, year out. They remain in poverty because of their lack of income. We are talking not about missing out for a few weeks, as someone on another benefit might, but about permanent poverty.
The Government have not bothered to find out who those pensioners are, but we can make an informed guess that they are like other poorer pensioners: they are old, they are alone, they are women and they are widows. We should not ignore their plight. We know that, if they do not get income support, they will not get cold weather payments. One million pensioners in Britain lose out on that entitlement and on the reassurance of help with heating bills. We know what happens: high fuel bills mean that many pensioners do not turn up their heating during periods of intense cold, such as the weather that we had in December and January.
§ Mr. DenhamThe 1 million pensioners do not benefit from a system that does not work. There were 127 separate events triggering cold weather payments during December and January, but those pensioners did not benefit. This country carries the shame of an extra 30,000 to 50,000 deaths a year because of the cold, but the Government's response is confused, uncaring, ineffective and increasingly mean. What do the Government say when faced with evidence that their income support system is failing 40 per cent. of the people whom it is meant to reach? The Secretary of State said in his Politeia lecture last year:
Our policies promise security to the least well-off pensioners.They do not—not when they fail 40 per cent. of the poorest pensioners. The Secretary of State says that people do not claim because they choose not to. If that is true, why did the number of people not claiming increase by 300,000 in one year?The Under-Secretary is more direct. He told the Standing Committee considering the Bill:
we do not know why certain pensioners do not take up income support".—[Official Report, Standing Committee E, 5 December 1996; c. 44.]That was honest, but the Government should know. They say that they want people to claim. The Minister told the Committee:We all accept that it is important that pensioners who are entitled to income support should be given every encouragement and all the information that they need to claim it."—[Official Report, Standing Committee E, 5 December 1996; c. 62.]The system is failing 40 per cent. of those entitled, and Government spending on publicity is being reduced.The Government seem content to see the poorest pensioners in poverty and happy to go on creating the stigma that deters claimants. I do not believe that the problem is simply one of people choosing not to claim. I believe that the stigma puts people off, because income support is seen as charity, not as a right that goes a small way towards returning some of the taxes and national insurance paid over the years.
The forms are complex, and people are worried about misclaiming inadvertently and being labelled scroungers, or worse. Elderly people are often proud, and have every reason to be, but that does not mean that we should not ensure that they are offered what they are entitled to in the most acceptable and easiest form.
I commend the role played by Age Concern, Help the Aged and many local councils and voluntary agencies in raising awareness about benefits. They have shown that, with the right approach, information and help, people will claim; but still income support is failing 40 per cent. of the poorest pensioners.
A different approach is possible. Labour Members have said that we want to move towards a pension entitlement that is simpler to claim, with more access points and presented without the stigma of income support. One valuable tool to help to identify potential beneficiaries would be finding ways of using information that people have already freely given. The new clause would make that possible.
It is often assumed that pensioners who do not claim income support are outside the system, and that no one knows about them or has any idea who they are. That is not true. A considerable number of those missing out on 843 benefits are receiving other benefits, or are in contact with other agencies, such as the local authority social services department.
Entitlement could be established at a wide variety of predictable trigger points: retirement age; reaching 75 years; reaching 80 years; a spouse going into care or into hospital; care assessment for domiciliary care; a move to sheltered housing; a claim for attendance allowance; a claim for disability living allowance; becoming registered as blind; the death of a spouse; or making an application for housing or council tax benefits. Those trigger points could be brought together to identify and encourage take-up.
The new clause would allow the development of some parts of such a system. For example, it would allow the passing of information from the Contributions Agency to local authorities and between agencies and the Benefits Agency. It would allow the Secretary of State to set out the circumstances in which that could happen. There are good reasons for that approach, including the proper protection of privacy and the proper protection of public finances. However, it is clear that more could be done for pensioners who claim some benefits but not others.
Under the new clause, people who receive council tax benefit, for example, could have their entitlement to income support identified. They would be offered the chance to claim, and payment would be made on the simplest possible basis.
According to what the Minister said in Committee, fewer than half the local authorities are in a position to tell pensioners about possible entitlement to income support. Notification is likely to be vague and unspecific, and the individual will still have to comply with a lengthy claims procedure, possibly duplicating the procedure for claiming council tax or housing benefit.
The first part of the new clause would enable local authorities to identify a potential claimant and calculate the value of the claim, in many cases using existing information. Only a little additional information might be required. The local authority could follow up the claim or pass it to the Benefits Agency.
The second part of the new clause would allow the information verification procedures adopted by one benefit-paying body to be accepted for benefit payment, under circumstances set out by the Secretary of State. That would avoid the need for the same information to be assessed by two separate bodies for the same purpose—paying benefit. In practice, that might require a system of local service agreements between the Benefits Agency and the local authority about the information required to calculate benefit.
Under the new clause, people eligible for one benefit—a pensioner receiving council tax benefit, for example—could have their entitlement to another benefit, such as income support, calculated. They could then be offered payment, which would be triggered simply by their saying yes, which would obviate the need for a further claim.
The new clause would go a significant way towards assisting the poorest pensioners who are missing out on their entitlement.
Mr. Robert G. HughesNew clause 3 has at its heart a simple proposal that sounds attractive. It was mentioned 844 by the hon. Members for Peckham (Ms Harman) and for Rochdale (Ms Lynne) on Second Reading. It sounds simple: there would seem to be no reason why the method used to catch people who seek to defraud the system should not be used in the other direction.
There is an overlap between this debate and the previous one. We should consider what the new clause would mean in practice rather than take it at face value. In practice, it would invade people's privacy in quite some detail.
Some people may not want to claim benefit, although I accept that some people may be unaware of their entitlement. That is why the Government continue to run a succession of benefit take-up campaigns, some of which have been very successful. Some people, however, might resent the idea that the state was looking at all the details of their private lives and had decided to inform them that they might be entitled to benefit and that they should make a claim; they would resent that intrusion into their private lives.
§ Mrs. Anne CampbellI wonder whether the hon. Gentleman has discussed his concerns with the Data Protection Registrar. It appears from my conversations with her that she would insist on certain safeguards, but she is happy with the principle of data matching for such benign purposes.
Mr. HughesThat is extremely good of the Data Protection Registrar. Funnily enough, however, I was not referring to her. Although she may consider it perfectly right to do so under the regulations, she cannot possibly speak on behalf of pensioners and other potential claimants. The hon. Lady has raised an irrelevant point.
As my hon. Friend the Minister said at the end of the debate on Second Reading—although I missed the first few seconds of the speech by the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham), I do not think that he addressed this point—some people would be identified as potential claimants, but would not be entitled to benefit.
§ Mr. Paul Flynn (Newport, West)I am stunned by the hon. Gentleman's line of argument. Can he provide examples of elderly people—or anyone on a tiny disposable income, living in real poverty—having objected because the Government had tried to force money on them?
Mr. HughesI am sure that some people would not object, but others might. Some elderly people are very proud and might object to the state taking an overview of their lives.
§ Mr. HealdDoes my hon. Friend agree that one category that includes substantial numbers consists of people who live with their families, are supported by them and choose not to claim benefit?
Mr. HughesMy hon. Friend is absolutely right. I do not wish to delay the House long, but there are two points to be made about the new clause. First, many pensioners would find its provisions grossly intrusive into their private lives; secondly, the information gleaned might be inaccurate and some people would be informed that they 845 were entitled to further benefit when that was not the case. Unless those points can be answered, new clause 3 should not be added to the Bill. I shall certainly oppose it.
§ Mr. Chris DaviesIn supporting new clause 3, I should like to take up what I understand to be the Government's argument in opposing it, which is simply that it would be impractical and would not achieve their objective. If that is the case—and some Opposition Members believe that the Government's objective is not to increase public expenditure, even to help the most needy in society—why does the Minister not simply look at the wording of the new clause? It is well intentioned, relatively harmless and unlikely to cause any problems if the Minister were to accept it. The possible benefit to be gained is that more than a million pensioners might have the opportunity to secure some of the money to which the House believes them to be entitled.
I ask the Minister to reject the argument put forward by the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes) that pensioners are reluctant to accept what is rightfully theirs, and I ask him to recognise that, although the new clause may be flawed and technically it may not be possible to implement it at present, perhaps in a few months or years there may be some advantage to be gained. Even if the advantages are minimal, at least by accepting the new clause the Minister will have swept away the criticisms of Opposition Members who suspect that he may have ulterior motives.
§ Mr. HealdThe hon. Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Davies) has made some interesting comments. It is an odd principle that we should simply take a punt on the new clause, whether or not it works. We heard a detailed account of the Opposition's approach from the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham), but my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes) really hit the nail on the head when he addressed many of the difficulties in that approach.
New clause 3 attempts to enable benefit entitlements to be identified, assessed and checked without the involvement of the individual concerned, using information already held or gathered under the provisions of the Bill. Unfortunately, it would not work, and it would take us no further forward. In fact, it would do little more than raise people's hopes when they are not entitled to benefit.
I explained in Committee the measures that are in place to make the public aware of the benefits that are available. Everyone has the choice whether or not to claim benefit; the important point is that help is there for those who need it. Assessment of entitlement to benefit is a complex procedure and not something that can be achieved without having all the relevant information available; yet by proposing that entitlement should be determined using just the information already held, that is exactly what the new clause would result in.
In respect of information in Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise records, data matching would be ineffective from a benefit take-up perspective. The Inland Revenue holds information only about taxpayers and those claiming repayments of tax; it does not hold information about non-taxable income counted for benefit purposes such as income from premium bonds, tax- 846 exempt special savings accounts and national savings certificates or earnings from part-time employment. Similarly, Customs and Excise holds information relating only to people and businesses registered for VAT, but not those with turnovers below the VAT threshold. Other details, such as information about non-dependants and other household members, are also relevant for benefit entitlement purposes but cannot be obtained from the Inland Revenue, Customs and Excise or any Government Department.
§ Mrs. Anne Campbellrose—
§ Mr. HealdThat brings me to the subject of local government, about which the hon. Lady may wish to ask me.
Our guidance to local authorities encourages them to take action to make all claimants who appear to have a potential entitlement to income support aware that help may be available to them from the Benefits Agency. Many local authorities have software available to automate that. With regard to income support records, a service level agreement between the Benefits Agency and local authorities allows for information to be exchanged, and that will continue. Income support claim forms contain a form inviting the income support claimant to claim housing benefit and/or council tax benefit.
§ Mrs. CampbellDoes the Minister agree that many pensioners who claim council tax benefit are entitled to income support but do not claim it even though they have been told by their local authority that they may be entitled to it? His proposals do not deal with that. That is precisely what my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) is trying to overcome.
§ Mr. HealdI recognise the hon. Lady's concern, but the difficulty is that, although it is quite right to make all pensioners and individuals who are entitled to benefit aware of their entitlements—and such help is quite properly available—it is for the individual to decide whether they wish to claim benefit.
The Government's view is that to undertake a means-testing exercise behind people's backs and without their permission, which would also not be accurate, is the wrong way forward. Making pensioners aware, through information made available by the Government through leafleting, sending information to various information points, visiting pensioner groups and co-ordinating the sort of pensioner awareness campaign that has recently been running in conjunction with Help the Aged and other elderly people's groups is the better way forward.
With regard to income support rules, if the income support claimant does not indicate that he or she wishes to claim housing benefit or council tax benefit and does not complete the claim form that we issue, I do not believe that it is right for him or her to be pursued or for us to insist that they make a claim. This is a free country, as the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mrs. Campbell) said in a different context, and we must accept that there may be reasons why individuals genuinely do not want to claim.
§ Mr. FlynnIt is ludicrous to say—and no evidence of it has been given—that pensioners are not claiming benefits because they do not want the money. It would be extraordinary if that were so. We know that the reason is that they are ignorant of available allowances. The awareness campaign would impress us a great deal more if the Government had not recently made cuts in the telephone hotline service—the main service that told people what was available.
§ Mr. HealdI totally disagree with the hon. Gentleman about the purpose of closing the general advice line. It was closed because numerous people were ringing to ask about their personal circumstances and were having to be told that they would have to get in touch with their local office if they wanted anything to be done. We are localising the service. Why bother having an intermediate step when individuals can ring their local office where trained staff are able to answer their inquiries? The hon. Gentleman says that we all know that individuals do not claim because they do not know about the rules, but we do not know that that is so. What we know is that a significant number of people do not claim, and I believe that there may be a variety of reasons for that.
The Government believe that it is a better use of resources to ensure that information about benefit entitlement is freely available in the public domain, and that is what we do. The Department and its agencies take extensive action to publicise the wide range of benefits that are available. It is a clear measure of success that in 1994–95—the most recent year recorded—£9 out of every £10 of available benefit was claimed.
The state retirement pension order book contains notes explaining details of other benefits, including income support and housing benefit. People whose benefits are paid directly into their bank or building society by automated credit transfer receive annual copies of the notes. Information about social security benefits and the conditions of entitlement to them is widely available to the public from Benefits Agency offices, local authorities, welfare rights organisations and other places such as doctors' surgeries. In addition, leaflets explaining benefit rules are available in post offices and libraries throughout the country.
There will always be some people who choose not to claim. That is their right. For those who wish to claim, information and advice about benefits to which they might be entitled is readily available. In those circumstances, I ask the House to reject the new clause.
§ Mr. DenhamThe Minister has failed to rise to the scale of the problem: 1 million pensioners—one in 10 of all pensioners, and the poorest pensioners in this country—are going without the benefit to which they are entitled; 40 per cent. of people who are meant to be helped by income support are not receiving it; and the number of pensioners who chose not to claim in one year increased by 300,000.
The Minister says that that is simply because people do not want to receive assistance—a contention for which he has put forward no evidence whatever. If the Government were genuinely concerned about the problem, the very 848 least that they would have done would be to conduct some research to try to justify their claim. In the absence of such a claim, I prefer to believe that, although some people may not want to claim, the great majority do not do so because of the stigma, the complexity and the difficulty of understanding the system and making a claim.
Every one of the objections that Conservative Members have raised can be dealt with. If the Secretary of State were convinced that there would be serious objections—albeit from a minority of pensioners—to information that was freely given for one benefit being assessed for another, there is no reason why, under new clause 3, the Secretary of State could not simply include on the claim forms a box to enable people to refuse to allow information to be used for any other purpose. I suspect, however, that very few people would exercise that option. That point entirely meets the objection raised by the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes).
The second objection raised was that information would not be accurate. Anybody who knows the structure of the benefits system is aware that information that has been accepted as accurate for, say, housing benefit or council tax benefit is precisely the same information that is needed to calculate income support. Either the Minister and the hon. Member for Harrow, West are suggesting that there is something fundamentally wrong with the information being used for the payment of benefits, or that objection, too, is a red herring.
Fundamental to the issue is the difference in message that would go out if it appeared that the system worked to the benefit of the individual who needed assistance. It should be made clear that such help is not charity or a state handout, but an entitlement, and every part of the system should make every effort to ensure that those who need support receive it because the support received has been paid for many times over during people's working lives. At present, the Government seem prepared to allow an entire set of wholly unnecessary obstacles to lie in the path of an efficient and effective system. For those reasons, I hope that the House will support new clause 3.
§ Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 245, Noes 297.
852| Division No. 66] | [6.29 pm |
| AYES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Benton, Joe |
| Adams, Mrs Irene | Bermingham, Gerald |
| Ainger, Nick | Berry, Roger |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cav'try NE) | Blunkett, David |
| Allen, Graham | Boateng, Paul |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Bradley, Keith |
| Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) | Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E) |
| Armstrong, Ms Hilary | Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) |
| Ashdown, Paddy | Burden, Richard |
| Ashton, Joseph | Byers, Stephen |
| Austin-Walker, John | Caborn, Richard |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Callaghan, Jim |
| Barnes, Harry | Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) |
| Barron, Kevin | Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) |
| Battle, John | Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) |
| Bayley, Hugh | Campbell-Savours, D N |
| Beckett, Mrs Margaret | Caravan, Dennis |
| Beith, A J | Cann, Jamie |
| Bell, Stuart | Chidgey, David |
| Benn, Tony | Chisholm, Malcolm |
| Bennett, Andrew F | Clapham, Michael |
| Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Hutton, John |
| Clelland, David | Illsley, Eric |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Ingram, Adam |
| Coffey, Ms Ann | Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampst'd) |
| Cohen, Harry | Jamieson, David |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Janner, Greville |
| Corbett, Robin | Jenkins, Brian D (SE Staffs) |
| Corston, Ms Jean | Jones, Barry (Alyn & D'side) |
| Cousins, Jim | Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Môn) |
| Cox, Tom | Jones, Dr L (B'ham Selly Oak) |
| Cummings, John | Jones, Martyn (Clwyd SW) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) |
| Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE) | Jowell, Ms Tessa |
| Dafis, Cynog | Kennedy, Charles (Ross C & S) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Kennedy, Mrs Jane (Broadgreen) |
| Darling, Alistair | Khabra, Piara S |
| Davidson, Ian | Kilfoyle, Peter |
| Davies, Bryan (Oldham C) | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Davies, Chris (Littleborough) | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eccles) |
| Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) | Lewis, Terry |
| Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) | Liddell, Mrs Helen |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H) | Litherland, Robert |
| Denham, John | Livingstone, Ken |
| Dewar, Donald | Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd) |
| Dixon, Don | Llwyd, Elfyn |
| Donohoe, Brian H | Loyden, Eddie |
| Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | McAllion, John |
| Eagle, Ms Angela | McAvoy, Thomas |
| Eastham, Ken | Macdonald, Calum |
| Ennis, Jeff | McFall, John |
| Etherington, Bill | McKelvey, William |
| Evans, John (St Helens N) | Mackinlay, Andrew |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret | McLeish, Henry |
| Faulds, Andrew | McNamara, Kevin |
| Field, Frank (Birkenhead) | MacShane, Denis |
| Fisher, Mark | Madden, Max |
| Flynn, Paul | Maddock, Mrs Diana |
| Foster, Don (Bath) | Mahon, Mrs Alice |
| Foulkes, George | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
| Fraser, John | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Fyfe, Mrs Maria | Martin, Michael J (Springburn) |
| Galbraith, Sam | Martlew, Eric |
| Galloway, George | Maxton, John |
| Gapes, Mike | Meacher, Michael |
| Garrett, John | Meale, Alan |
| George, Bruce | Michael, Alun |
| Gerrard, Neil | Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley) |
| Gilbert, Dr John | Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute) |
| Godman, Dr Norman A | Milburn, Alan |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Miller, Andrew |
| Gordon, Ms Mildred | Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) |
| Graham, Thomas | Moonie, Dr Lewis |
| Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) | Morgan, Rhodri |
| Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | Morley, Elliot |
| Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
| Grocott, Bruce | Morris, John (Aberavon) |
| Gunnell, John | Mowlam, Ms Marjorie |
| Hardy, Peter | Mudie, George |
| Harman, Ms Harriet | Mullin, Chris |
| Henderson, Doug | Murphy, Paul |
| Heppell, John | O'Brien, Mike (N Warks) |
| Hill, Keith (Streatham) | O'Brien, William (Normanton) |
| Hinchliffe, David | O'Hara, Edward |
| Hodge, Ms Margaret | Olner, Bill |
| Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld) | O'Neill, Martin |
| Home Robertson, John | Orme, Stanley |
| Hood, Jimmy | Pearson, Ian |
| Hoon, Geoffrey | Pendry, Tom |
| Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A) | Pickthall, Colin |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Pike, Peter L |
| Howells, Dr Kim | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
| Hoyle, Doug | Prescott, John |
| Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) | Primarolo, Ms Dawn |
| Hughes, Robert (Ab'd'n N) | Purchase, Ken |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport E) | Quin, Ms Joyce |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark) | Randall, Stuart |
| Raynsford, Nick | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Reid, Dr John | Stevenson, George |
| Rendel, David | Straw, Jack |
| Robertson, George (Hamilton) | Sutcliffe, Gerry |
| Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW) | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Roche, Mrs Barbara | Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck) |
| Rogers, Allan | Thurnham, Peter |
| Rooker, Jeff | Timms, Stephen |
| Rooney, Terry | Tipping, Paddy |
| Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) | Touhig, Don |
| Rowlands, Ted | Trickett, Jon |
| Ruddock, Ms Joan | Turner, Dennis |
| Sedgemore, Brian | Vaz, Keith |
| Sheerman, Barry | Walker, Sir Harold |
| Sheldon, Robert | Wallace, James |
| Walley, Ms Joan | |
| Shore, Peter | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Short, Clare | Watson, Mike |
| Simpson, Alan | Williams, Alan (Swansea W) |
| Skinner, Dennis | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
| Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) | Winnick, David |
| Smith, Chris (Islington S) | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) | Wray, Jimmy |
| Snape, Peter | Wright, Dr Tony |
| Soley, Clive | |
| Spearing, Nigel | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Spellar, John | Mr. Jon Owen Jones and |
| Steel, Sir David | Mr. Clive Betts. |
| NOES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey) | Cash, William |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Channon, Paul |
| Alexander, Richard | Chapman, Sir Sydney |
| Alison, Michael (Selby) | Clappison, James |
| Allason, Rupert (Torbay) | Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd) |
| Amess, David | Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) |
| Arbuthnot, James | Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Colvin, Michael |
| Ashby, David | Congdon, David |
| Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E) | Conway, Derek |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F) |
| Baker, Kenneth (Mole V) | Coombs, Simon (Swindon) |
| Baldry, Tony | Cope, Sir John |
| Banks, Matthew (Southport) | Cormack, Sir Patrick |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Couchman, James |
| Bates, Michael | Cran, James |
| Batiste, Spencer | Curry, David |
| Beggs, Roy | Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd) |
| Bellingham, Henry | Davis, David (Boothferry) |
| Bendall, Vivian | Day, Stephen |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Deva, Nirj Joseph |
| Biffen, John | Devlin, Tim |
| Body, Sir Richard | Dicks, Terry |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Booth, Hartley | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
| Boswell, Tim | Dover, Den |
| Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | Duncan, Alan |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Duncan Smith, Iain |
| Bowden, Sir Andrew | Dunn, Bob |
| Bowis, John | Durant, Sir Anthony |
| Boyson, Sir Rhodes | Dykes, Hugh |
| Brandreth, Gyles | Eggar, Tim |
| Brazier, Julian | Elletson, Harold |
| Bright, Sir Graham | Emery, Sir Peter |
| Brooke, Peter | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld) |
| Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes) | Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) |
| Browning, Mrs Angela | Evans, Nigel (Ribble V) |
| Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Evans, Roger (Monmouth) |
| Budgen, Nicholas | Evennett, David |
| Burns, Simon | Faber, David |
| Burt, Alistair | Fabricant, Michael |
| Butler, Peter | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
| Butterfill, John | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Carlisle, John (Luton N) | Fishburn, Dudley |
| Carrington, Matthew | Forman, Nigel |
| Carttiss, Michael | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim) | Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark |
| Forth, Eric | Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe) |
| Fowler, Sir Norman | Lidington, David |
| Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) | Lilley, Peter |
| Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) | Lloyd, Sir Peter (Fareham) |
| Freeman, Roger | Lord, Michael |
| French, Douglas | Luff, Peter |
| Fry, Sir Peter | Lyell, Sir Nicholas |
| Gale, Roger | MacGregor, John |
| Gallie, Phil | MacKay, Andrew |
| Gardiner, Sir George | Maclean, David |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Garnier, Edward | Madel, Sir David |
| Gill, Christopher | Maitland, Lady Olga |
| Gillan, Mrs Cheryl | Malone, Gerald |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Mans, Keith |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Marland, Paul |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Marlow, Tony |
| Gorst Sir John | Marshall, John (Hendon S) |
| Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Cambs) | Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) |
| Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Mates, Michael |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) | Mellor, David |
| Grylls, Sir Michael | Merchant, Piers |
| Gummer, John | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
| Hague, William | Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants) |
| Hamilton, Sir Archibald | Moate, Sir Roger |
| Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Monro, Sir Hector |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Needham, Richard |
| Hannam, Sir John | Nelson, Anthony |
| Hargreaves, Andrew | Neubert, Sir Michael |
| Harris, David | Newton, Tony |
| Haselhurst Sir Alan | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Hawkins, Nick | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Hawksley, Warren | Norris, Steve |
| Hayes, Jerry | Onslow, Sir Cranley |
| Heald, Oliver | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Heath, Sir Edward | Ottaway, Richard |
| Hendry, Charles | Page, Richard |
| Hicks, Sir Robert | Paice, James |
| Higgins, Sir Terence | Patnick, Sir Irvine |
| Hogg, Douglas (Grantham) | Patten, John |
| Horam, John | Pattie, Sir Geoffrey |
| Hordern, Sir Peter | Pawsey, James |
| Howard, Michael | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Howell, David (Guildf'd) | Pickles, Eric |
| Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W) | Porter, David |
| Hunt, David (Wirral W) | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne) | Rathbone, Tim |
| Hunter, Andrew | Redwood, John |
| Hurd, Douglas | Renton, Tim |
| Jack, Michael | Richards, Rod |
| Jackson, Robert (Wantage) | Riddick, Graham |
| Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N) | Robathan, Andrew |
| Jessel, Toby | Roberts, Sir Wyn |
| Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S) |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Robinson, Mark (Somerton) |
| Jones, Robert B (W Herts) | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Jopling, Michael | Rowe, Andrew |
| Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine | Rumbold, Dame Angela |
| Key, Robert | Ryder, Richard |
| King, Tom | Sackville, Tom |
| Kirkhope, Timothy | Sainsbury, Sir Timothy |
| Knapman, Roger | Scott, Sir Nicholas |
| Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Knight, Greg (Derby N) | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) | Shephard, Mrs Gillian |
| Knox, Sir David | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
| Kynoch, George | Shersby, Sir Michael |
| Lait, Mrs Jacqui | Sims, Sir Roger |
| Lamont, Norman | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Lang, Ian | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
| Lawrence, Sir Ivan | Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld) |
| Legg, Barry | Soames, Nicholas |
| Leigh, Edward | Speed, Sir Keith |
| Spencer, Sir Derek | Trimble, David |
| Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset) | Trotter, Neville |
| Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs) | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Spink, Dr Robert | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Spring, Richard | Waldegrave, William |
| Sproat, Iain | Walden, George |
| Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) | Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
| Stanley, Sir John | Waller, Gary |
| Stern, Michael | Ward, John |
| Stewart, Allan | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Streeter, Gary | Waterson, Nigel |
| Sumberg, David | Watts, John |
| Sweeney, Walter | Whitney, Sir Raymond |
| Whittingdale, John | |
| Sykes, John | Widdecombe, Miss Ann |
| Tapsell, Sir Peter | Wiggin, Sir Jerry |
| Taylor, Ian (Esher) | Wilkinson, John |
| Taylor, John M (Solihull) | Willetts, David |
| Taylor, Sir Teddy | Wilshire, David |
| Temple-Morris, Peter | Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton) |
| Thomason, Roy | Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld) |
| Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V) | Wolfson, Mark |
| Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) | Wood, Timothy |
| Thornton, Sir Malcolm | Yeo, Tim |
| Townend, John (Bridlington) | Young, Sir George |
| Townsend, Sir Cyril (Bexl'yh'th) | |
| Tracey, Richard | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Tredinnick, David | Mr. Bowen Wells and |
| Trend, Michael | Mr. Sebastian Coe. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.