PROVISION OF SCHOOL TRANSPORT AND OTHER FACILITIES

HC Deb 18 May 1994 vol 243 cc905-19

Mr. Jimmy Hood (Clydesdale)

I beg to move amendment No. 3, in page 97, line 11, at end insert—

'(aa) in subsection (1) at the end there shall be inserted— "; provided that any motor vehicle used for the conveyance of pupils pursuant to this subsection shall be equipped with seatbelts for the use of any passengers travelling in it.".'. I want to start by stating the obvious—that this amendment is about education and that its competency is wholly relevant to education in Scotland. It seeks to make compulsory the fitting of seat belts in all vehicles transporting children to and from school. The Minister seems to think that this is a matter for the Department of Transport rather than for the Scottish Office. He is wrong, and I hope to persuade the House why it is so important that we provide protection for children travelling to and from school.

9 pm

There is a legal obligation on parents to send their children to school. It is therefore not unreasonable for them to expect the Government to provide legislation to ensure that their children are transported safely. My amendment would ensure that the legislation provided such protection. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State—the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Lord James DouglasHamilton)—together with the Minister for Roads and Traffic, whom I am pleased to see in his place, have argued that we cannot legislate without impinging on the competency of the European Commission and that seat belts can be made compulsory only by means of Europewide legislation. The Select Committee on European Legislation, of which I am the Chairman, is currently inquiring into the competence of member states in respect of all issues of road safety. We hope, by the summer recess, to have taken evidence from the Commission and from both Ministers. I have not so far been persuaded of the validity of some of the Government's arguments. However, I shall not try to anticipate the Committee's conclusions.

Not long ago, we sat many hours during the course of which the Prime Minister himself sought to convince the House—in particular, his own Back Benchers—on the question of subsidiarity. If the protection of children travelling to and from school is not a matter for subsidiarity, what is? I want to read into the record a Commission statement dated 8 February. In that statement, Commissioner Bangemann outlines the approach that he intends to adopt to improve protection for bus and coach passengers, especially against the risk of ejection in the event of an accident: In the meantime, as the Commission has previously indicated, member states may still, within the limits set by Community law, introduce legislation regarding the use of certain categories of vehicles to transport members of the public—for example, motorway coaches or school buses. I quote that comment for the purpose of stopping the nonsensical suggestion that the protection we seek cannot be provided by the House of Commons—that it can come only from Brussels. I do not accept that, and the words that I have just quoted prove our point.

The Government make a case about cost. They say that the cost of the compulsory provision of seat belts would be too inhibiting. It is nonsense to talk about cost in the context of children's lives. But let us get the matter into perspective. Like many other people, I argue that the cost involved here is not great. Seat belts could be fitted to a 53-seat coach for no more—probably less—than it takes to put a stereo cassette and a video unit in a coach. In that light, what we are talking about takes on a different meaning. If seat belts had to be fitted in all buses, the cost would obviously come down. Lo and behold, it might also be possible to give jobs to the unemployed. When people talk about cost, let them compare like with like.

In this situation, cost should not be an issue. In any case, it is estimated that the implementation of the Bill will cost up to £700 million. In that context, what is the relevance of questioning the cost of protecting children on their way to and from school?

Mr. Foulkes

I assure my hon. Friend that he has not only my support but that of my constituent Dorothy Wilson, whose son Christopher was tragically killed last year in a school bus at Auchinleck. Christopher's mother has set up a group to argue the case that my hon. Friend is putting forward so eloquently. My hon. Friend will have the eternal gratitude of Dorothy Wilson and her whole family if the Minister and the House accept his amendment.

Mr. Hood

I thank my hon. Friend. I have indeed met his constituent, and it was a tragic case.

Twenty-two children have been killed in coach accidents in the past 28 weeks—almost one child a week. We do not have time to equivocate or pontificate about where competence may lie. Our children are in daily danger of being killed as they travel to and from school. We have the power to stop that; I hope that the Minister will take action tonight to do just that.

I ask Conservative Members and Ministers to put themselves in the place of a bereaved parent and to think long and hard before voting against the amendment.

On 17 February this year at 10 o'clock in the morning, I received a phone call from my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Griffiths), telling me that he had just heard on the news that a child had been killed in a school bus accident in Biggar. A few minutes before I had phoned my wife at home, and she told me that my daughter had left for Biggar high school on the school bus. For a few minutes, therefore, I did not know whether the child who had been killed was my own daughter. I shall never forget the feeling of despair and anguish I experienced as I phoned home to find out from my wife whether my daughter had been killed. Fortunately she was able to tell me that it was not my daughter who had been involved in the accident.

My feeling was one of relief, immediately followed by guilt because I was relieved to learn that someone else's child, not mine, had been killed. I have since met the parents of the two children who died—another child died some time after the accident. I am determined to put in place legislation to protect our kids.

I should like to record my thanks to the Minister for the courteous way in which he received the parents who came to present a petition bearing 46,254 signatures. I have read press comments to the effect that the signatures came from all over Scotland; in fact most of them came from my constituency. That means that well over 60 per cent. of my constituents must have signed the petition.

The Minister knows what is required now—indeed, I suspect that he supports the amendment. I know from my discussions with him that he is sympathetic and supportive. I hope that he will give us good news tonight. We must adopt seat belt legislation as a matter of urgency. Certainly, the supervision of school buses, coach design, traffic management and the installation of seat belts are all important parts of the overall solution, but seat belts are the most important.

The Government have three options. They can support my amendment, as I hope they will; or they can tell the House that they intend to return later with legislation to make seat belts compulsory on school coaches; or they can turn their backs on the problem and walk away. I very much hope that they will not turn their backs on it.

Mr. Gordon McMaster (Paisley, South)

I thank my hon. Friend and congratulate him on what he is trying to achieve tonight. He will be aware that in a parliamentary answer to me, the Minister has already said he would disregard for capping purposes any expenditure incurred by local authorities. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not enough, because it does not make seat belts compulsory on school buses?

Mr. Hood

My hon. Friend raises an important point. While I welcome the measure, and acknowledge that the Government's initial response was helpful, we still need legislation. We cannot have discretion when we are talking about saving children's lives. We cannot have a discretion which may be taken up in one part of the country but not in another. If it is at the discretion of expenditure for local authorities, priorities will take over and we will not achieve the safety that we require.

Therefore, it is important to have legislation to make it compulsory to have seat belts in school buses and I hope the Minister supports that tonight.

The Government do not have the option of walking away. If they walk away, turn their backs and allow the carnage of children being transported in buses that are then involved in crashes, deaths in school bus crashes will continue. In amendment No. 3 we have the opportunity to stop that carnage, so I hope the Minister will take the opportunity tonight and support the amendment.

Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham)

I intervene in the debate because today we have had the announcement of the final figures for road casualties in Scotland, England and Wales for 1993.

The good news is that since the Department of Transport set a target of cutting casualties involving deaths and serious injuries by one third by the year 2000, it has virtually achieved that target. That is a staggering achievement which covers the whole of Great Britain. It is one for which most other countries in Europe, and certainly countries in North America, would give their eye teeth.

One of the more impressive interpretations is that if we accept that road traffic has increased by virtually 40 per cent., the rate at which people are killed and seriously injured has halved. That is dramatic. We have not had the same change for slight injuries, but those do not matter so much.

For the number of deaths to have come down from an average of 5,600 to just over 3,800 is a tribute to road engineers, vehicle engineers and those who use the roads —motor cyclists, cyclists and car users—have all contributed.

As the hon. Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood) rightly pointed out, there are still 3,800 deaths a year in Great Britain. We know the causes and the consequences of the crashes.

The whole House will agree with the hon. Gentleman that the time will come when all organised transport for children to and from school will have seat belts and the law will require that they should be used.

I have not been able to track back through the amendment, which will amend the Education (Scotland) Act 1980, to find out whether it would affect private transport as well as organised transport by the school, but I do not want to make nit-picking points. Getting it right will reduce risks and avoid some of the consequences when there is a crash.

As Esther Rantzen showed in her "That's Life" programmes in 1986, a child in a crash is more at risk of severe injury and we should accept that by being belted up in a car, a child reduces that risk by half or two thirds. That is a significant improvement. The improvement for a passenger in a bus or coach is less, but it is probably still significant; the improvement for a passenger in a minibus is probably the same as if they were in a car, so we need to work for all those improvements.

No doubt my hon. Friend the Minister will make a formal response to the amendment, put it in context and say what the Government may be able to achieve. If the House takes action which moves people from organised transport to parents' cars, we shall increase the risk by two or three times. A passenger in a private car is at two or three times the risk of someone in a bus or a minibus. We should be slightly careful about saying that a blanket change will instantly reduce the risk for those who travel on organised transport. I think that we will need to work out how to reduce the risk, while encouraging those who are putting out contracts for transport to introduce safety provisions at a certain time—perhaps now or at a specified time in the future.

I say to both my hon. Friends on the Front Bench that the time has come to abolish the out-of-date habit of allowing education authorities to put three teenagers in seats which are meant for two.

Anyone who looks at 13-year-olds nowadays and pretends that three of them can be squeezed safely into a bus seat made for two is wrong. Responsibility in this area is shared by the Department of the Environment, the Treasury, the Department of Transport and the territorial departments. They should respond to the recent tragic vehicle accidents by abolishing that provision at once.

9.15 pm

Mr. John McFall (Dumbarton)

I support the amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood). As he mentioned, between August 1993 and February 1994 we have seen 21 school children and three adults die on our roads. Five people have been seriously injured and 105 school children have been hurt.

In Scotland, we are particularly concerned about the incident in Biggar involving two pupils, Francis Scorgie and Tony Cousins. In the discussions we have had with parents' groups and others since then, the message has come across that only national legislation will secure compliance with real safety requirements and will guarantee the central Government funding which is necessary in order to implement them. If that were the case, bus companies, schools or local authorities could no longer pass the buck and continue to confuse parents with the finer details of contractual law.

The national Government need to help local government to combat the problem. The hon. Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley) mentioned the three-for-two rule. The Lothian region has abolished that rule and contractual arrangements make sure that the three-for-two rule does not apply. In Strathclyde, it will be abolished from the 1994–95 session. Strathclyde has also made an immediate commitment to spend £4.35 million on seat belts. Its total commitment will be £10.29 million over the next two years.

We are looking for a financial commitment from the Government to help local authorities with this problem. The Government can help in a number of areas—for example, vehicle identification for minibuses. A pilot scheme was conducted in my constituency of Dumbarton involving fitting to vehicles a sign on the nearside sun visor in the down position. The local authority has undertaken that scheme, but we need a commitment from national Government to reaffirm that that is the right way to go.

Within the context of the European Union, Strathclyde has also undertaken preparatory work on legislation to make mandatory the fitting of signs saying "Front" and "Rear" to all school transport vehicles. The Government could make identification mandatory for school vehicles. If that can be done in every town and city in America, it can be done in the United Kingdom.

Strathclyde and other local authorities are looking to central Government to consider, within any national guidelines and school transport provisions, the fitting of vehicle signs and the illumination of school buses while pupils are embarking or disembarking.

Above all, we require national guidelines about home-to-school transport. The Secretary of State for Scotland should address the full range of parental concerns regarding home-to-school transport by devising a set of national guidelines for implementation and resourcing local authorities through central Government.

I ask the Scottish Office Minister responsible for education to form a national working group of interested parties to devise these guidelines. That group should include parent representatives from, for example, the Scottish School Boards Association and the Scottish Parents Teachers Council.

We are masters in our own country when it comes to European legislation. The British Government are at liberty to name their own rules in relation to seat belts. I contacted the House of Commons Library today and I was informed that the United Kingdom can pass legislation that seat belts must be worn, but it cannot independently pass legislation that belts and anchorages must be fitted.

I am sure that hon. Members in all parts of the House agree with my hon. Friends that if the Government give a sign that they will pass such legislation, that will reassure thousands of parents throughout the country that the Government are serious. We ask the Government to make a genuine response tonight.

At the beginning of my speech, I mentioned the tragic fatal accident at Biggar involving two young people. The mother of one of them, Shona Cousins, said recently that she felt like walking into the Houses of Parliament and yelling, "Get a move on." We endorse that sentiment. We will not yell, "Get a move on," but we make a heartfelt plea on behalf of Shona Cousins and other parents who have tragically lost their children that the Government get a move on and legislate immediately.

Mr. Archy Kirkwood (Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

I pay particular tribute to the hon. Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood), whose speech was moving, eloquent and passionately argued. I cannot understand the delay. Voices north of the border are legitimately asking why Scottish Office Ministers seem to hide behind the fact that this issue is not their responsibility—that the Department of Transport is the lead Department. That may be the case —and it is a welcome sign to see the Minister for Roads and Traffic in his place to hear these important discussions. However, it is weak-kneed in the extreme of the Scottish Office to say the matter has nothing to do with it and that action must await an already long-awaited report. I understand that the report is much more superficial than people expected, given the length of time taken to produce it.

I cannot understand the continuous and continuing delay. It is incumbent on the Government to take this evening's appropriate opportunity to make a clear statement. A clear statement in principle would do. If they will say, "We are committed to this in principle," we could argue about the time scale, funding and the relationship between central and local government in future. All that could be discussed, and it would be sensible to take time to get those aspects right.

At present, we are missing a clear statement that the Government have the political will to address the issue with the seriousness that it deserves, in the way that the hon. Member for Clydesdale did. I entirely subscribe to the argument that discussions should embrace the question of three pupils to two seats, and supervision should also be reviewed. Proper provisions may cost money in the long run, but they are absolutely essential. The lives of 22 young children have been lost in 28 weeks, and that is a frightening statistic. There is not a lot of time. There are questions urgently to be addressed. The Government have the power to legislate, and I fail to understand how Conservative Members could possibly be persuaded to vote against the amendment. It would take a strong argument from the Treasury Bench to persuade me that it would be right to do so. The Government have the power to legislate, but they are not exercising it. The people of Scotland are right to ask why.

Mr. Geoffrey Dickens (Littleborough and Saddleworth)

With the indulgence of the House, I shall make a brief contribution. If we wait for Europe, we will wait a long time. The Government have been talking to the European Commission for years about this matter, and there is not much enthusiasm from many member states for protecting their children in the way that we want to protect the children of this country. I see no reason why we should not go it alone.

At present, local education authorities or school governors can tell their contractors, "You will not bus our children unless seat belts are fitted in your vehicles." They could do that immediately. With all the publicity that has been given to the issue, many local authorities are debating it now. As contracts are usually renewed in September, they will tell their contractors that from now on, their vehicles must be fitted with seat belts.

We have a dilemma. One cannot just fit seat belts. Bus and coach operators have been here today with lap belts and seats down in Dining Room B. The problem is that the front forward-facing seats that are exposed—the two front seats on the opposite side to the driver, and the middle seats at the back—must have seat belts now by law. Usually, the loading is 10G. The question is whether 6G is acceptable on other seats; if not, a great deal of structural alteration to the floors has to be made, because not all the seats go into chassis metal members.

It is very important that the Government give us the conclusions of the technical and cost report that they have on the table at the moment, because once we have that and get some technical guidance we will not need Government money or any great incentive; the coach operators. are waiting to fit them. In fact, many of them have ordered them by the thousand and have them on the shelf waiting to fit, but cannot do so ahead of the conclusions of the report, which we hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister will be able to announce shortly. I do not see why, as the majority of trips are made by schools. The voluntary people with their own bus could have a fund-raising event and fit their own. They could go ahead and do it tomorrow, but we need the technical information.

That is why I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood), on the Opposition Benches, will be able to withdraw his amendment if we get the right answers tonight. [Interruption.] Yes, he is a friend. I like him.

If the Government show us that they are really going for it and we are to go it alone, we can get on and do it almost immediately. The coach operators wish to do it. The school governors want it. Many voluntary organisations want it, but we must have the technical know-how to ensure the correct loading on the belts. They are not just pretty belts to put around people. They must have an impact loading. That is the important thing.

I implore my hon. Friend to try to give us some guidance. If he cannot do so tonight, he should promise it within a few days so that the coach operators know the loading and what structural alterations have to be made.

Mrs. Ewing

In supporting the amendment moved by the hon. Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood), I make two personal points: first, I am a former pupil of Biggar high school and, although I did not know the youngsters involved or, indeed, the families, it touches one's heart when one thinks about the circumstances. I am very concerned about the pupils. Secondly, as a member of the Select Committee on European Legislation, I sit with the hon. Member when we deal with that aspect of legislation.

I started writing to the various Departments involved in the issue some time ago. It might be useful to remind the House that we are not looking for a knee-jerk reaction to a particular incident, but for legislation that will be effective and long term. When I first started taking up the issue, it was because parents in my constituency were writing to me about their concerns, because I represent a rural area, as does the hon. Gentleman, where youngsters have to travel long distances to reach their school.

I wrote to the Secretary of State for Transport and to the Minister for education and housing in the Scottish Office a considerable time ago and raised the issue of seat belts on minibuses. I made four points: what freedom the UK Government have to implement legislation pertaining to seat belts in minibuses and coaches; whether the Government have any facility to assist financially any owners or companies wishing to install them; what is the practice of our European Union partner countries; and what European directives and regulations have been issued on such matters.

To be fair, both Departments responded fairly quickly. The Minister for education and housing at the Scottish Office mentioned the Education (Scotland) Act 1980, which has already been referred to. But there is also the issue of regulation 3(a) of the Schools (Safety and Supervision of Pupils) (Scotland) Regulations 1990 for pupils when under their charge and under common law. As we have seen in the Aberdeen Evening Express, if we go ahead with the legislation, it could cost Grampian regional council £2 million. That is part of the difficulty that many local authorities face. If our local authorities are to implement effective regulations that will ensure that children travel to school in safety—from whatever corner of the community they come—the Government must recognise that they have a duty to assist authorities in implementing those regulations. The responsibility must be placed firmly with them.

In a letter dated 22 February, the Minister wrote: We are currently reviewing the full technical and cost implications of seat belts in these vehicles. Until this review is complete and we have full reports on the recent tragic accidents we feel that it would not be wise to consider making further regulations in this area. We desperately want to know when the reports will be forthcoming: until we see them, we shall not know whether the Government are making any commitment to introduce the appropriate safety legislation.

9.30 pm

It is wrong for Ministers to blame the European Commission and European legislators for the problem. I have a copy of the sessional documents, dated as far back as December last year; the relevant motion was moved in the name of the European People's party, to which I believe the Government subscribe. The motion asked for individual member states to be allowed and encouraged to take over the whole idea of seat belts and roll-over bars in all new coaches as a matter of urgency. I shall send the document to the Minister if he wishes, but it is quite clear that there is a commitment to seat belts in Europe.

At the end of last year, the Government tried to blame the European Commission and the European Union for the fact that seat belts had not been installed. That is appalling. Contradictory statements were put out, which caused considerable confusion and concern to parents in my constituency and elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Let me place it on record that responsibility lies with the Government: they must legislate.

Sir Nicholas Fairbairn (Perth and Kinross)

I will be brief. I had intended to speak for three hours, but I will speak for three minutes.

The issue seems simple to me. I cannot understand why anyone has not already legislated for seat belts to be provided in all vehicles carrying people at risk, whether they are of tender age, in old age or middle-aged. My one criticism of the amendment is that it is restricted to school children. Why should it not apply to all of us?

I have heard the excuses relating to cost, delay and the difficulties involved in fitting seat belts. I do not recall those arguments being accepted when seat belts were introduced for motor cars. If motorists did not have them, they were in trouble. No one said, "It takes an awfully long time to fit a seat belt; you have to measure it and fiddle around with it." Absolute nonsense!

This legislation is essential, and I hope that it will be extended to every member of the population. I thoroughly commend the hon. Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood) for tabling the amendment. No excuses based on cost, delay, reports, studies or any other stupid thing will convince me. It can be done tomorrow. If someone wants a seat belt for his car, he can drive along to the garage and have it fitted. Let the Government do this tomorrow.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton

This is an extremely important debate. As my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley) pointed out—he has been a transport Minister—the number of road casualties has fallen, but that leaves no room for complacency. There can be no walking away from the problem; it will be given proper consideration. Indeed, it is being given urgent consideration now.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Dickens) said, local authorities can do much by putting into their contracts the most appropriate terms and conditions to lay down in the circumstances.

The hon. Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood) made a moving and effective speech to raise an important issue. I fully understand his concerns; the fact that he lives in Biggar, and so shared the grief of that community following the Biggar school bus crash on 10 February, underlines his commitment to the cause. I was especially glad that he led a delegation of local parents from the Biggar area to see me in Edinburgh on 15 April, so that they could put forward their concerns to the Government. I listened to the powerful points that they made.

I have had several meetings with my hon. Friend the Minister for Roads and Traffic, and I am glad to see that he is here for the debate. The Scottish evidence has, of course, been fed in to the process.

More recently, the whole House will have shared the grief of the families of the two cub scouts, Andrew Lyle and Richard Olsson, and of Mr. Anthony Milburn—the three people killed in the tragic accident in North Yorkshire earlier this week. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport will receive a full report on that accident, too, as soon as possible.

I make it clear at the outset that the Government share the deeply felt public concern about safety standards in school transport. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the safety of children is at the forefront of our concern. However, the Secretary of State for Transport has the lead responsibility for vehicle safety matters in the United Kingdom. His Department has recently completed a review of the technical and cost implications of fitting seat belts to all minibuses and coaches, and of related safety matters. The Government will take decisions shortly on the outcome of that review.

I am sure that there will be no disagreement in the House that it is vital that appropriate steps should be taken in all the circumstances. But I hope that hon. Members will also agree that whatever steps we take must be the right ones, fully informed by all the available evidence.

I shall return to the wider issues later, but first I shall address the substance of the amendment. As drafted, it would have a damaging effect on the delivery by education authorities of a school transport service, because it would require that no buses could transport children to school unless they were fitted with seat belts. If that restriction were incorporated into the Bill, it would in practice prevent education authorities from providing school transport for most of the children presently dependent on school buses to get to and from their schools. I am sure that that is not what the hon. Gentleman intended, but that is what the amendment would do.

Secondly, as I have said, the question whether seat belts should be fitted to any category of motor vehicles, including buses, is properly a matter for the Secretary of State for Transport. It would not be appropriate to introduce into clause 141 a provision on seat belts restricted to school transport in Scotland alone. Yet that would be the result of the amendment.

Mr. McLeish

This is a Scottish Bill, and the Minister is responsible for it.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton

The matter has to be dealt with on a British basis; it will be dealt with collectively by Ministers as a whole.

Thirdly—

Mr. Foulkes

Will the Minister give way?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton

No.

Thirdly, the amendment is technically flawed in that it refers to line 11—

Mr. Hood

Will the Minister give way?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton

I shall give way to the hon. Member for Clydesdale, who moved the amendment, in a moment.

The amendment refers to line 11 on page 97, and would therefore amend section 50 of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980. In fact, the main provisions of that Act relating to school transport are in section 51. That is, of course, a detail, but it means that the amendment is flawed. For all those reasons, the Government must reject the amendment.

Mr. Hood

rose—

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton

I have many more points to make, but I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Hood

May I make an obvious point? If the amendment was out of order, Madam Speaker would not have chosen it to be debated. Therefore, the amendment is within the competence of the legislation, and it is within the competence of the Scottish Office to accept that protection, as part of a Scottish Bill, to protect Scottish children.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton

I shall repeat what the Prime Minister said at the Dispatch Box yesterday: I hope that it will not be very long before we are able to publish it"— that is, the report. He continued: The report has now been delivered to Ministers and I hope that they will be able to announce their conclusions shortly. —[Official Report, 17 May 1994; Vol. 243, c. 669.]

Mr. Foulkes

Will the Minister give way?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton

No, I shall not give way now.

The matter has to be dealt with on a British basis. I fully appreciate the widespread concern in the House for immediate Government action, but the decisions that we take will have to be right in the light of all the evidence, and the fullest knowledge of all the facts. That is our priority now. I am taking careful note of the widespread concerns that have been expressed about school transport safety, including what has been said in the House today. We are concerned to make certain that appropriate steps are taken on the safety of school transport. The Department of Transport's review looks at the technical and cost implications of fitting seat belts to all minibuses and coaches, as well as related safety matters.

I do not believe that it would be appropriate to move forward in advance of the Department's conclusions. I hope that all hon. Members would agree that it is absolutely essential that we take the right decisions on safety measures when we are fully informed by all the available evidence and of the implications of our decisions. As the Prime Minister made clear to the House, we hope to be able to do so in the near future.

Mr. Dalyell

rose—

Madam Speaker

Order. Is the Minister giving way on an intervention?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton

I have sat down, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Dalyell

I just want the Minister to explain how it is possible under this legislation to have legislation on the disconnection of water supplies, but apparently not possible to have a different policy on seat belts. How does that come about? We had endless arguments in the Standing Committee about the disconnection of water supplies, and it was said to be quite proper to have separate legislation for Scotland—rightly, in the opinion of some of us—on disconnections. Why cannot the same thing be applied to seat belts? Is there an answer? The Minister is broody with answer.

Mrs. Ewing

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I find it difficult to comprehend what the Minister has just said. It now seems that we cannot amend Scottish legislation through the normal processes of the House, because we have attempted with this amendment and debate to alter regulations pertaining to Acts which solely relate to Scotland—

Madam Speaker

Order. The hon. Lady is not putting a point of order to me. She really is attempting to take a second bite of the cherry. She has already spoken once, and therefore I cannot allow it. She is putting questions to me which concern legislation, which is not within my authority.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton

With the leave of the House, I shall explain to the hon. Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood) that local authorities can put a specification into their contracts. They have that power now. The point I was making was that, while he may be confident in amending the Bill, it is not desirable before the review has reported to the House and to the Secretary of State for Transport.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 244, Noes 274.

Division No. 246]	[9.42 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane	Chisholm, Malcolm
Adams, Mrs Irene	Clapham, Michael
Ainger, Nick	Clark, Dr David (South Shields)
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)	Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Allen, Graham	Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)	Clelland, David
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)	Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Armstrong, Hilary	Coffey, Ann
Ashton, Joe	Connarty, Michael
Austin-Walker, John	Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)	Corbyn, Jeremy
Barnes, Harry	Corston, Ms Jean
Barron, Kevin	Cousins, Jim
Battle, John	Cummings, John
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret	Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Bell, Stuart	Dafis, Cynog
Benn, Rt Hon Tony	Dalyell, Tam
Bennett, Andrew F.	Darling, Alistair
Benton, Joe	Davidson, Ian
Bermingham, Gerald	Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)
Berry, Roger	Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Betts, Clive	Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Blair, Tony	Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'I)
Blunkett, David	Dixon, Don
Boateng, Paul	Dobson, Frank
Boyes, Roland	Donohoe, Brian H.
Bradley, Keith	Dowd, Jim
Bray, Dr Jeremy	Dunnachie, Jimmy
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)	Eagle, Ms Angela
Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)	Eastham, Ken
Burden, Richard	Enright, Derek
Caborn, Richard	Etherington, Bill
Callaghan, Jim	Evans, John (St Helens N)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)	Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)	Fairbaim, Sir Nicholas
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)	Fatchett, Derek
Campbell-Savours, D. N.	Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Canavan, Dennis	Flynn, Paul
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)	Foster, Rt Hon Derek

Foster, Don (Bath)	Mandelson, Peter
Foulkes, George	Marek, Dr John
Fraser, John	Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Fyfe, Maria	Martlew, Eric
Galloway, George	Maxton, John
Gapes, Mike	Michael, Alun
Garrett, John	Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
George, Bruce	Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)
Gerrard, Neil	Milburn, Alan
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John	Miller, Andrew
Godman, Dr Norman A.	Moonie, Dr Lewis
Godsiff, Roger	Morgan, Rhodri
Golding, Mrs Llin	Morley, Elliot
Gordon, Mildred	Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe)
Graham, Thomas	Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)	Mowlam, Marjorie
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)	Mudie, George
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)	Mullin, Chris
Grocott, Bruce	Murphy, Paul
Gunnell, John	Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Hain, Peter	O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Hall, Mike	O'Hara, Edward
Hanson, David	Olner, William
Hardy, Peter	O'Neill, Martin
Harvey, Nick	Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Henderson, Doug	Parry, Robert
Heppell, John	Pendry, Tom
Hill, Keith (Streatham)	Pickthall, Colin
Hinchliffe, David	Pike, Peter L.
Hoey, Kate	Pope, Greg
Hogg, Norman (Cumbemauld)	Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Home Robertson, John	Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E)
Hood, Jimmy	Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Hoon, Geoffrey	Prescott, John
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)	Primarolo, Dawn
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)	Quin, Ms Joyce
Hoyle, Doug	Radice, Giles
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)	Raynsford, Nick
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)	Redmond, Martin
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)	Reid, Dr John
Hutton, John	Rendel, David
Illsley, Eric	Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Ingram, Adam	Roche, Mrs. Barbara
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)	Rogers, Allan
Jamieson, David	Rooker, Jeff
Janner, Greville	Rooney, Terry
Johnston, Sir Russell	Ross, Emie (Dundee W)
Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)	Rowlands, Ted
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)	Ruddock, Joan
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)	Salmond, Alex
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)	Sedgemore, Brian
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)	Sheerman, Barry
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald	Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Keen, Alan	Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)	Short, Clare
Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn)	Simpson, Alan
Khabra, Piara S.	Skinner, Dennis
Kilfoyle, Peter	Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil (Islwyn)	Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)
Kirkwood, Archy	Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Lewis, Terry	Soley, Clive
Livingstone, Ken	Spearing, Nigel
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)	Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
Llwyd, Elfyn	Stevenson, George
Loyden, Eddie	Stott, Roger
Lynne, Ms Liz	Strang, Dr. Gavin
McAllion, John	Straw, Jack
McAvoy, Thomas	Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
McCartney, Ian	Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Macdonald, Calum	Tyler, Paul
McFall, John	Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
McKelvey, William	Wallace, James
McLeish, Henry	Warden, Gareth (Gower)
Maclennan, Robert	Wareing, Robert N
McMaster, Gordon	Watson, Mike
McNamara, Kevin	Welsh, Andrew
MacShane, Denis	Wicks, Malcolm
McWilliam, John	Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Madden, Max	Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Maddock, Mrs Diana	Wilson, Brian

Winnick, David	Young, David (Bolton SE)
Wise, Audrey
Worthington, Tony	Tellers for the Ayes:
Wray, Jimmy	Mr. Alan Meale and
Wright, Dr Tony	Mr. J. Spellar.

NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)	Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Alexander, Richard	Dover, Den
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)	Duncan, Alan
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)	Duncan-Smith, Iain
Amess, David	Dunn, Bob
Arbuthnot, James	Durant, Sir Anthony
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)	Dykes, Hugh
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)	Eggar, Tim
Ashby, David	Elletson, Harold
Aspinwall, Jack	Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Atkins, Robert	Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)	Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)	Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Baldry, Tony	Evennett, David
Banks, Matthew (Southport)	Faber, David
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)	Fabricant, Michael
Bates, Michael	Fenner, Dame Peggy
Batiste, Spencer	Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Bellingham, Henry	Fishburn, Dudley
Bendall, Vivian	Forman, Nigel
Beresford, Sir Paul	Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Biffen, Rt Hon John	Forth, Eric
Blackburn, Dr John G.	Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Body, Sir Richard	Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas	Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
Booth, Hartley	Fry, Sir Peter
Boswell, Tim	Gale, Roger
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)	Gallie, Phil
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia	Gardiner, Sir George
Bowden, Andrew	Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan
Bowis, John	Garnier, Edward
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes	Gill, Christopher
Brandreth, Gyles	Gillan, Cheryl
Brazier, Julian	Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Bright, Graham	Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)	Gorst, John
Browning, Mrs. Angela	Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW)
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)	Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Budgen, Nicholas	Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Burns, Simon	Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Burt, Alistair	Grylls, Sir Michael
Butcher, John	Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Butler, Peter	Hague, William
Carlisle, John (Luton North)	Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)	Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Carrington, Matthew	Hampson, Dr Keith
Carttiss, Michael	Hannam, Sir John
Cash, William	Hargreaves, Andrew
Channon, Rt Hon Paul	Harris, David
Chapman, Sydney	Haselhurst, Alan
Churchill, Mr	Hawkins, Nick
Clappison, James	Hayes, Jerry
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)	Heald, Oliver
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif)	Heathcoat-Amory, David
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey	Hendry, Charles
Coe, Sebastian	Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L.
Colvin, Michael	Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Congdon, David	Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Conway, Derek	Horam, John
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)	Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)	Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John	Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Couchman, James	Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Cran, James	Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)	Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)	Hunt, Sir John (Ravensboume)
Davis, David (Boothferry)	Hunter, Andrew
Day, Stephen	Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Deva, Nirj Joseph	Jack, Michael
Devlin, Tim	Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Dickens, Geoffrey	Jenkin, Bernard
Dicks, Terry	Jessel, Toby
Dorrell, Stephen	Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)	Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr)	Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael	Ryder, Rt Hon Richard
Key, Robert	Sackville, Tom
King, Rt Hon Tom	Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim
Kirkhope, Timothy	Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas
Knapman, Roger	Shaw, David (Dover)
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)	Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Knight, Greg (Derby N)	Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)	Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Knox, Sir David	Skeet, Sir Trevor
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)	Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui	Soames, Nicholas
Lang, Rt Hon Ian	Speed, Sir Keith
Lawrence, Sir Ivan	Spencer, Sir Derek
Legg, Barry	Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Leigh, Edward	Spink, Dr Robert
Lidington, David	Spring, Richard
Lightbown, David	Sproat, Iain
Lloyd, Rt Hon Peter (Fareham)	Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Lord, Michael	Steen, Anthony
Luff, Peter	Stephen, Michael
MacGregor, Rt Hon John	Stern, Michael
MacKay, Andrew	Stewart, Allan
Maclean, David	Streeter, Gary
McLoughlin, Patrick	Sumberg, David
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick	Sweeney, Walter
Malone, Gerald	Sykes, John
Mans, Keith	Tapsell, Sir Peter
Marlow, Tony	Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Marshall, John (Hendon S)	Taylor, John M. (Solihull)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)	Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)	Temple-Morris, Peter
Mates, Michael	Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian	Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick	Thumharn, Peter
Merchant, Piers	Townend, John (Bridlington)
Mills, Iain	Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)	Tracey, Richard
Moate, Sir Roger	Tredinnick, David
Montgomery, Sir Fergus	Trend, Michael
Moss, Malcolm	Trotter, Neville
Newton, Rt Hon Tony	Twinn, Dr Ian
Nicholls, Patrick	Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Nicholson, David (Taunton)	Viggers, Peter
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)	Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Norris, Steve	Walden, George
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley	Waller, Gary
Oppenheim, Phillip	Ward, John
Ottaway, Richard	Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Page, Richard	Waterson, Nigel
Paice, James	Watts, John
Patten, Rt Hon John	Whitney, Ray
Pawsey, James	Widdecombe, Ann
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth	Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Pickles, Eric	Wilkinson, John
Porter, Barry (Wirral S)	Willetts, David
Porter, David (Waveney)	Wilshire, David
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael	Wolfson, Mark
Redwood, Rt Hon John	Wood, Timothy
Richards, Rod	Yeo, Tim
Riddick, Graham	Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn	Tellers for the Noes:
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)	Mr. Irvine Patnick and
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)	Mr. Bowen Wells.

Amendment accordingly negatived.