HC Deb 20 February 1991 vol 186 cc317-26

`(1) A magistrates' court may not issue a warrant of commitment for a default in paying any sum adjudged to be paid by the conviction unless it is of the opinion that it would be—

  1. (a) impracticable to enforce payment of the sum by a warrant of distress or an attachment of earnings order or an application for deduction of sums from amounts payable to the offender by way of income support; and
  2. (b) inappropriate to enforce payment by any other method.

(2) Where a magistrates' court issues a warrant of commitment for default in paying any sum adjudged to be paid by the conviction, it shall state in open court the reasons for its opinion that it would be impracticable to enforce payment of the sum by a warrant of distress or an attachment of earnings order or an application for the deduction of sums from amounts payable to the offender by way of income support.

(3) A magistrates' court shall cause a reason stated under subsection (2) above to be specified in the warrant of commitment and to be entered in the register.'.—[Mr. Sheerman.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this, it will be convenient to discuss new clause 3—fine default— '1(1) Subject to subsection (2) below no court shall have the power to commit to custody any person in respect of the non-payment of all or part of a fine where the offence for which the fine was imposed was itself non-imprisonable. (2) A court may commit a person to custody for non-payment of all or part of a fine if the court is satisfied that the default is due to the offender's wilful refusal to pay and that there is no other method of dealing with that person.'.

Mr. Sheerman

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

New clauses 2 and 3 aim to prohibit the imprisonment of fine defaulters except where other methods of enforcement are impracticable. Many of us who are interested in criminal justice reform will have read our Dickens and will have been impressed by the ghastly conditions of debtors' prisons. Some of us thought that they had long since disappeared from British society, but a large number of people are still sent to prison because of failure to pay their fines.

New clause 2 requires any court imprisoning a fine defaulter to state its reasons for believing that it is impracticable to enforce the fine by attaching earnings, attaching income support or the distraint of goods. The aim of the new clause is to eliminate the imprisonment of fine defaulters except where it is genuinely impracticable to obtain payment.

Evidence shows that far too many people are not given the fullest opportunity to pay. More than a fifth of the people sent to prison each year in England and Wales are there because of non-payment of fines. That means that a great many people are sentenced for offences other than violence or other serious crimes. Of course, we want those who are guilty of sexual offences or of violence to be sent to prison, but do we want our prisons to be full of people who default on fines? Are there not better ways to ensure that people pay their fines?

In 1989, a total of 16,985 people were imprisoned for fine default. The fines had been imposed for a wide range of offences, the largest category being motoring offences. That is astonishing. Of those fined for motoring offences, 4,581 who did not pay the fines finished up in prison. The number sent to prison for theft and fraud was 3,865. In 1989, 22 per cent. of all offenders entering prison and 40 per cent. of those given sentences of six months or less were there for fine default.

Let us imagine what that does to the prison system, which clogs up with people who should never have been in prison in the first place. Those people have to be admitted, processed and looked after, which involves a great deal of administration. Because most sentences for fine default are short, defaulters represent just 1.3 per cent. of the average daily population of sentenced prisoners and 11.4 per cent. of those serving six months or less. That puts the matter in perspective.

However, even a small proportion of fine defaulters can cause serious problems for a hard-pressed prison system, especially since the strain is felt most in local prisons where overcrowding is greatest. Those of us, like the Minister of State, who have been to Armley, Strangeways and other local prisons know the pressure on them. We should be taking whatever pressure we can off them.

We are still waiting for the Woolf report on the investigation into the Strangeways disturbance. We hope to have it before the Bill goes to another place. Before we even see that report, we know that if we could have taken some pressure off Strangeways and other local prisons by getting fine defaulters out of prison, we would have done a thorough job in keeping out of prison people who should never have been there and in taking pressure off a prison system which is near breaking point, especially when we think of the work involved in the reception of 17,000 prisoners, regardless of each prisoner's length of stay in the establishment.

Two important provisions in the Bill could bring about a great reduction in the number of imprisoned fine defaulters. The first is the unit fine system which, by tailoring fines in proportion to an offender's income, should reduce the number of unrealistically high fines imposed on poor offenders. We have been campaigning for that for many years, and at last we have got it. It is common sense that people should pay a proportion of their income and that that proportion should be fair.

The second provision will enable fines to be deducted from income support payments. Since it is estimated by the Home Office that 90 per cent. of imprisoned fine defaulters are unemployed, that should provide a practical alternative to imprisonment in many cases. Because courts will be able to attach earnings or income support and to distrain goods, it should rarely be necessary to resort to imprisonment. The new clauses would help ensure that courts use wide-ranging enforcement powers to obtain payment instead of imposing imprisonment.

The new clauses would add to the provisions in the Bill. They deserve sympathetic consideration by the Government. When they were debated in Committee the Minister of State said: Attachment of earnings and the attachment of social security payments—a reform that has been welcomed widely—will make it possible for people to avoid imprisonment. If they are not satisfied, magistrates do not have to commit people to prison". He concluded: Although the introduction of the new clause is well intentioned, it is unnecessary".—[Official Report, Standing Committee A, 7 February 1991; cc. 735–6.] Those comments miss the point. Giving the courts a range of powers to enforce fines does not guarantee that they will always use them when it is appropriate. At present, the readiness of courts to use their enforcement options varies greatly. Research into four magistrates courts by the Vera Institute of Justice, published in 1986 under the title "The Enforcement of Fines as Criminal Sanctions", found that courts rarely exhaust the enforcement options available to them before they resort either to the most coercive (and most costly) enforcement device—a committal to prison—or to writing off the fine as uncollectable. More recently, the result of research at one arrears court by Drs. Allison Morris and Lorraine Gelsthorpe was published in The Magistrate in October 1990. Those academics wrote: From an examination of the outcomes, it is clear that certain powers of enforcement were rarely used: there was only one money payment supervision order even though a number of defendants seemed to have severe personal difficulties. And there was only one attachment of earnings order made yet more than half … of the men interviewed were employed at the time of this hearing. In few cases was the question of an attachment of earnings order even raised". It seems that those powers could be used more widely, particularly where a suspended committal is used as a substitute method of enforcement … The arrears court we attended relied more heavily on the use of suspended committals than many of its other enforcement powers. If that is the case—the evidence that we have quoted is, I think, both respectable and thorough—the Minister should accept the new clause. That would have a major effect on our prison system, and would ensure an end to the Dickensian situation to which I referred earlier. Many hon. Members have incurred fines for speeding——

Mr. John Patten

Name them.

Mr. Sheerman

Hon. Members on both sides of the House have been fined recently. Such people should not end up in prison, and the new clause would ensure that they did not.

The report in The Magistrate concluded: Arrears courts should perhaps be obliged to show that they have used all other powers available to them before resorting to suspended committals. The discipline of having to give reasons in the form required by the new clause would help to focus the attention of the courts on the alternative enforcement methods available, and to reduce the chances of defaulters being imprisoned unnecessarily. The Bill requires courts to give reasons for imposing custodial sentences, but does not require them to do so when imprisoning offenders for default. However, the arguments for such a requirement in default cases are equally strong. In that area of decision-making, as in others, a requirement to give reasons would usefully concentrate sentencers' minds, and would structure their decisions.

We do not consider our proposals highly political, except in the sense that it is a stain on our society that so many prisoners should come into contact with far more serious offenders, and with a prison culture that may introduce them to what has been described as a university of crime. It must be wrong to send fine defaulters to prison to perpetuate the system of debtors' prisons in modern Britain. We hope that the Government will see what a dramatic change our proposals could make.

6.45 pm
Mr. Barry Porter (Wirral, South)

I came here to listen, and I have listened with interest to much of what has been said; I had no intention of speaking, but having heard the remarks of the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) I am prompted to express the hope that he will occasionally attend a court rather than listening to academics talking about them.

In this country, it is extremely difficult to be sent to prison—people have to work at it rather hard. I have spent a large part of my life defending the undefendable, and sometimes the indefensible, and I know how the system works. A person may describe, with tears in his eyes, being convicted for a motoring offence and thereafter sent to prison, but it is not like that at all. A chap who has been driving without insurance or without a licence, for instance, will be fined a couple of hundred pounds on the unit system, which has in practice been working for years. Magistrates do not fine people who are on social security—or whatever it is called nowadays—more than a man earning £10,000 per year.

The motoring offender is then fined £200 for various offences and, on the advice of people like myself, offers to pay £2 per week. The magistrate will tell him to pay £3 a week—or, in the case of a particularly hard bench, £4. The offender will tell me—or, perhaps, my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Mr. Jones)—that he cannot pay, whereupon we will say, "Have a go, and come back in three weeks." We will then make an application to have the order varied.

The magistrates will vary the order to £2 or £3 a week. If the offender still does not pay, he will be brought back to an arrears court, where he will say, "£2 is all that I can pay." A suspended committal follows—rather harsh, at that stage.

It does not often happen in that way, however. In my experience, and in that of anyone who practises in the courts, magistrates go to vast lengths to ensure that the weekly amount can be paid; only a fool, or someone who is determined not to obey the order of the court, will end up in prison. People may talk of a university of crime, but these are offenders who will go down for 14 or 30 days. I have known people to choose that option, because it is cheaper and relatively pleasant—in their experience—to spend time in Walton prison in Liverpool, and they would rather do that than pay up.

The hon. Member for Huddersfield suggests that there is a Dickensian state of affairs in which people are sent to prison for debt. That state of affairs does not exist. Nowadays, if people go to prison for not paying fines, it is because they choose to—every magistrates court in my experience has given people every possible opportunity to avoid that. The new clause is a waste of time.

Mr. Maclennan

I did not have the privilege of serving on the Standing Committee, but I enjoyed reading the speeches, especially those made by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman). He made a notable contribution to the Committee proceedings, and has done the same today. As I agree with every word that he has said, I need not speak at length this evening. It is sometimes pleasant to express satisfaction with an identity of view across the parties, and to put aside the partisan feelings that too often divide us.

No doubt the anecdotal evidence presented by the hon. Member for Wirral, South (Mr. Porter) is true of many individual cases with which he has been associated, but he did not attempt to argue against the statistical evidence regarding the people who end up in prison for defaulting on fines. The hon. Gentleman said that for some people it was cheaper to go to prison than to pay a fine. That is no reason why society should accept their choice if there is another way of dealing with the problem. It is more expensive for society to imprison people, and if we can possibly keep those people out of prison, that must be our objective.

Mr. Porter

They will never pay.

Mr. Maclennan

There may be an irreducible number of people who will not pay. I understand that in a number of Scandinavian countries it is not possible to send people to prison for fine default. Experience in those countries is not such as to suggest that we should lightly cast these new clauses aside. In the light of some of the arguments that the Minister deployed in Committee, I believe that, strictly speaking, the new clauses may not be necessary. However, they are desirable. What is particularly desirable is the requirement that the reasons for not adopting the alternative methods of ensuring the payment of fines should be given. The requirement to give reasons could very well alter practices which fall short of the Government's clear intention that incarceration should be avoided in all but the most serious cases.

Mr. John Patten

It is always good to hear people speak from experience. My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral, South (Mr. Porter), whom I am happy to see on the Front Bench now, gave us the benefit of his quarter century's practice in the courts. He and the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Mr. Jones) have seen some of these things at first hand in the area where they both practise. I enjoyed the company of the hon. Member for Ynys Môn on the Standing Committee, and felt very uneasy that the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) was not there. Taking a criminal justice measure through its stages is not the same without the presence of the hon. Gentleman. However, we have heard him today.

I should be right behind much of what has been said by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman), and would suggest that his new clauses be accepted, were it not for changes made in other parts of the Bill. We are introducing unit fines and income support attachments, which I believe make these new clauses unnecessary. None of us wants to see fine defaulters committed to prison unnecessarily. The number of people committed for default went down steadily during the 1980s. The average time a male defaulter spends in prison is now eight days, and in the case of a women it is six days. These periods are considerably shorter than those which applied in the Dickensian England conjured up by the hon. Member for Huddersfield. Indeed, the length of time that a fine defaulter now spends in gaol is half what it was a decade ago. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wiral, South said, it now quite hard to go to prison unless one really wants to.

Under the Bill, because of the introduction of unit fines and income support deductions, the number of people in prison should fall quite rapidly. In saying that, one is not crying in the wind. Unit fine scheme experiments conducted in four areas—one in Wales, and the other three in England—indicate that the number of people imprisoned for fine default fell quite sharply. Thanks to the radical changes that the Bill makes—changes which have been widely welcomed—I believe that that trend will continue. That being so, I cannot recommend that the House should accept the new clauses.

Mr. Sheerman

I was interested in the comments of the hon. Member for Wiral, South (Mr. Porter). It seems that, after all those years in the courts, he is rather cynical. It is a pity that he is unable to take a fresh look at the situation—especially at the figures and at the research material that I quoted. As I have said, a large number of people are ending up in prison for the non-payment of fines. The Minister agrees that they should not be there. It is in a positive spirit that Her Majesty's Opposition are trying to improve the Bill.

Mr. Patten

What about unit fines?

Mr. Sheerman

We understand unit fines. Indeed, for years we have campaigned for them. We also understand social security payment attachments. All of that is indeed good stuff, but our new clauses, with the other changes, would create a system which would to a large extent clear out of our prisons people who had not paid fines. That would be a very positive step.

I was grateful for the kind words of the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan). It is good to know that he and I agree on this. We have here an opportunity to get away from a Dickensian situation. Whatever may be said, many of our prisons have conditions very similar to, if not worse than, those that Dickens described. Even if people choose to go to prison for seven or 10 days, or however long, imprisonment for this kind of offence cannot be right, and we want to stop it. The new clauses, with the other changes made by the Bill, would help to achieve that.

The hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland made an excellent point when he talked about people choosing to go to prison. I understand that some people on low incomes who get into debt might choose to go to prison for five or 10 days as a means of wiping out the debt. As a society, however, we ought not to provide that option unless everything else has been tried. Only when all other measures, such as attachment of earnings or of social security payments, have been exhausted should the court reluctantly choose a short term of imprisonment. That is all that the new clauses seek to achieve.

Mr. Lawrence

As that is what happens already, is there any basis for the new clauses?

Mr. Sheerman

Every year, under the present system, 17,000 people are sent to prison for short terms. If the hon. and learned Gentleman had been in the House earlier, he would have heard the research evidence that I quoted. That research shows that magistrates do not use their powers. Under the new clauses, magistrates would be directed to go through all other processes before imposing terms of imprisonment. I should have thought that that very simple proposal would be acceptable to any reasonable Member. We shall reluctantly press the new clauses to a Division.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 204, Noes 300.

Division No. 71] [7 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E)
Adams, Mrs. Irene (Paisley, N.) Fatchett, Derek
Allen, Graham Faulds, Andrew
Alton, David Fearn, Ronald
Anderson, Donald Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Flynn, Paul
Armstrong, Hilary Foot, Rt Hon Michael
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy Foster, Derek
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack Fraser, John
Ashton, Joe Fyfe, Maria
Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) Galbraith, Sam
Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich) Garrett, John (Norwich South)
Barron, Kevin Garrett, Ted (Wallsend)
Battle, John George, Bruce
Beckett, Margaret Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Beith, A. J. Golding, Mrs Llin
Bell, Stuart Gordon, Mildred
Bellotti, David Gould, Bryan
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Graham, Thomas
Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish) Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Bermingham, Gerald Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Bidwell, Sydney Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Boateng, Paul Grocott, Bruce
Boyes, Roland Hardy, Peter
Bradley, Keith Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E) Haynes, Frank
Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith) Heal, Mrs Sylvia
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) Healey, Rt Hon Denis
Buckley, George J. Henderson, Doug
Caborn, Richard Hinchliffe, David
Callaghan, Jim Hoey, Ms Kate (Vauxhall)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)
Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley) Home Robertson, John
Campbell-Savours, D. N. Hood, Jimmy
Canavan, Dennis Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Cartwright, John Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)
Clark, Dr David (S Shields) Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) Hughes, John (Coventry NE)
Clay, Bob Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Clelland, David Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Clwyd, Mrs Ann Illsley, Eric
Cohen, Harry Ingram, Adam
Corbett, Robin Janner, Greville
Corbyn, Jeremy Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Cousins, Jim Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Môn)
Crowther, Stan Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W)
Cryer, Bob Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Cummings, John Kennedy, Charles
Cunlitfe, Lawrence Kilfedder, James
Dalyell, Tam Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil
Darling, Alistair Kirkwood, Archy
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) Lambie, David
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l) Leadbitter, Ted
Dixon, Don Leighton, Ron
Dobson, Frank Lestor, Joan (Eccles)
Doran, Frank Lewis, Terry
Duffy, A. E. P. Litherland, Robert
Dunnachie, Jimmy Livingstone, Ken
Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Eadie, Alexander Lofthouse, Geoffrey
Evans, John (St Helens N) Loyden, Eddie
McAllion, John Richardson, Jo
McAvoy, Thomas Robertson, George
McCartney, Ian Rooker, Jeff
Macdonald, Calum A. Rooney, Terence
McFall, John Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
McKelvey, William Rowlands, Ted
Maclennan, Robert Ruddock, Joan
McMaster, Gordon Salmond, Alex
McNamara, Kevin Sedgemore, Brian
McWilliam, John Sheerman, Barry
Madden, Max Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Mahon, Mrs Alice Short, Clare
Marek, Dr John Skinner, Dennis
Marshall, David (Shettleston) Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)
Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) Smith, J. P. (Vale of Glam)
Martlew, Eric Snape, Peter
Maxton, John Soley, Clive
Meacher, Michael Spearing, Nigel
Meale, Alan Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Michael, Alun Steinberg, Gerry
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) Strang, Gavin
Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) Straw, Jack
Moonie, Dr Lewis Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Morgan, Rhodri Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) Turner, Dennis
Mullin, Chris Vaz, Keith
Murphy, Paul Wallace, James
Nellist, Dave Walley, Joan
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
O'Neill, Martin Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C)
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)
Owen, Rt Hon Dr David Wigley, Dafydd
Parry, Robert Williams, Rt Hon Alan
Patchett, Terry Wilson, Brian
Pendry, Tom Winnick, David
Powell, Ray (Ogmore) Wise, Mrs Audrey
Prescott, John Worthington, Tony
Primarolo, Dawn Wray. Jimmy
Quin, Ms Joyce
Randall, Stuart Tellers for the Ayes:
Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn Mr. Allen McKay and Mr. Ken Eastham.
Reid, Dr John
NOES
Adley. Robert Bowis, John
Aitken, Jonathan Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes
Alexander, Richard Brandon-Bravo, Martin
Alison, Rt Hon Michael Brazier, Julian
Allason, Rupert Bright, Graham
Amess, David Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)
Amos, Alan Browne, John (Winchester)
Arbuthnot, James Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) Buck, Sir Antony
Arnold, Sir Thomas Budgen, Nicholas
Ashby, David Burns, Simon
Aspinwall, Jack Butler, Chris
Atkins, Robert Butterfill, John
Atkinson, David Carlisle, John, (Luton N)
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) Carrington, Matthew
Baldry, Tony Cash, William
Banks, Robert (Harrogate) Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Batiste, Spencer Chapman, Sydney
Beggs, Roy Chope, Christopher
Bendall, Vivian Churchill, Mr
Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) Clark, Rt Hon Sir William
Benyon, W. Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)
Bevan, David Gilroy Colvin, Michael
Biffen, Rt Hon John Conway, Derek
Blackburn, Dr John G. Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)
Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Body, Sir Richard Cope, Rt Hon John
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Cormack, Patrick
Boscawen, Hon Robert Couchman, James
Bos well, Tim Cran, James
Bottomley, Peter Currie, Mrs Edwina
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia Curry, David
Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n) Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)
Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen Knight, Greg (Derby North)
Devlin, Tim Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Dicks, Terry Knowles, Michael
Dorrell, Stephen Knox, David
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Dover, Den Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Dunn, Bob Latham, Michael
Durant, Sir Anthony Lawrence, Ivan
Dykes, Hugh Lee, John (Pendle)
Eggar, Tim Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)
Emery, Sir Peter Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Evennett, David Lilley, Peter
Favell, Tony Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)
Fenner, Dame Peggy Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) Lord, Michael
Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey Luce, Rt Hon Sir Richard
Fishburn, John Dudley Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Fookes, Dame Janet Macfarlane, Sir Neil
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)
Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S) Maclean, David
Forth, Eric McLoughlin, Patrick
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael
Fox, Sir Marcus McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Franks, Cecil Madel, David
Freeman, Roger Maginnis, Ken
French, Douglas Malins, Humfrey
Fry, Peter Mans, Keith
Gale, Roger Maples, John
Gardiner, Sir George Marland, Paul
Gill, Christopher Marlow, Tony
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Glyn, Dr Sir Alan Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Goodhart, Sir Philip Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Goodlad, Alastair Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Gorman, Mrs Teresa Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) Mellor, Rt Hon David
Greenway, John (Ryedale) Meyer, Sir Anthony
Gregory, Conal Miller, Sir Hal
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) Miscampbell, Norman
Grist, Ian Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Ground, Patrick Mitchell, Sir David
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn Molyneaux, Rt Hon James
Hague, William Moore, Rt Hon John
Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) Morris, M (N'hampton S)
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) Morrison, Sir Charles
Hampson, Dr Keith Morrison, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Hannam, John Moss, Malcolm
Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr') Mudd, David
Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) Neale, Sir Gerrard
Harris, David Nelson, Anthony
Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Hayward, Robert Nicholls, Patrick
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE) Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. Norris, Steve
Hill, James Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley
Hind. Kenneth Oppenheim, Phillip
Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) Page, Richard
Holt, Richard Paice, James
Howard, Rt Hon Michael Patnick, Irvine
Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) Patten, Rt Hon John
Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Pawsey, James
Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) Porter, Barry (Wirral S)
Hunt, Rt. Hon. David (Wirral W) Porter, David (Waveney)
Hunter, Andrew Portillo, Michael
Irvine, Michael Powell, William (Corby)
Irving, Sir Charles Price, Sir David
Jack, Michael Raison, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
Jackson, Robert Rathbone, Tim
Janman, Tim Redwood, John
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) Ridsdale, Sir Julian
Jones, Robert B (Herts W) Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael Roberts, Sir Wyn (Conwy)
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine Roe, Mrs Marion
Key, Robert Rossi, Sir Hugh
King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) Rost, Peter
Kirkhope, Timothy Rumbold, Rt Hon Mrs Angela
Knapman, Roger Ryder, Rt Hon Richard
Sainsbury, Hon Tim Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)
Sayeed, Jonathan Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas Thorne, Neil
Shaw, David (Dover) Thurnham, Peter
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)
Shelton, Sir William Tracey, Richard
Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) Tredinnick, David
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) Trimble, David
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) Twinn, Dr Ian
Shersby, Michael Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Sims, Roger Viggers. Peter
Skeet, Sir Trevor Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N)
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) Walker, Bill (T'side North)
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) Waller, Gary
Soames, Hon Nicholas Walters, Sir Dennis
Speed, Keith Ward, John
Speller, Tony Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W) Watts, John
Squire, Robin Wells, Bowen
Stanbrook, Ivor Wheeler, Sir John
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John Whitney, Ray
Steen, Anthony Widdecombe, Ann
Stern, Michael Wiggin, Jerry
Stevens, Lewis Wilkinson, John
Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) Wilshire, David
Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) Winterton, Mrs Ann
Stewart, Rt Hon Ian (Herts N) Wood, Timothy
Stokes, Sir John Woodcock, Dr. Mike
Sumberg, David Yeo, Tim
Summerson, Hugo Young, Sir George (Acton)
Tapsell, Sir Peter Younger, Rt Hon George
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, Rt Hon J. D. (S'ford) Tellers for the Noes:
Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) Mr. John M. Taylor and Mr. Tom Sackville.
Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman
Temple-Morris, Peter

Question accordingly negatived.

Forward to