§ Considered again in Committee.
§ Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
§ Mr. MaclennanThe Home Secretary has argued that accountability means shared responsibility, but that is not an argument for excluding oversight by those to whom Parliament has given the task of scrutiny. We can accept the argument that Parliament cannot deal with questions of security in the same way that it deals with other matters. We accept that there has to be a narrower consideration by fewer hon. Members. However, as the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) said, Parliament must be satisfied by the arrangements that are made. We cannot be satisfied by an arrangement that allows the Home Secretary the sole responsibility for these matters, backed up in this narrow question of the issue of warrants 115 by a judicial officer appointed by him. That excludes from proper judicial review the common law rights of citizens not to have their liberties infringed by otherwise illegal activities.
The Home Secretary did not give the House an answer to the fact that the system we have recommended works. It works in Canada where there has been no problem of leakage. It has not called into question the effectiveness or secrecy of the Canadian security service. The right hon. Gentleman has not given the House any evidence to support the thesis that we alone of democracies should have no scrutiny by our Parliament. Nowhere did he explain why this country has to be out of step with other democracies in the rest of the world.
§ Mr. Richard ShepherdMy right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will not be surprised to hear that I am disappointed by his response to our considered amendments. Hon. Members have concentrated on the concept that, sometimes, the Security Service may get it wrong. Can we not evisage circumstances in which a Minister gives an incorrect instruction to the Security Service? Our amendments are designed to ensure that by a dual approach—having independent oversight—the Security Service would know if an improper instruction were given to it, and by a complaints system the matter could be remedied. When we legislate on the matter, internal control and accountability and external controls are fundamental for guaranteeing our democracy.
The Home Secretary did not mention the subtle balance necessary between the defence of democracy and our security. The theme running through our amendments is that the rule of law must be paramount. I am sorry that my right hon. Friend cannot conceive of circumstances in which that would be of assistance to the Government, the service and the House. That is why we tabled the amendments.
§ Mr. BuchanOn a point of order, Mr. Walker. A series of questions has been put to the Home Secretary, which he acknowledged clearly, and on which he has been making notes.
§ The Chairman of Ways and MeansOrder. It is entirely a matter for the Home Secretary whether he wants to speak again.
§ Mr. Buchanrose—
§ The ChairmanOrder. I am dealing with the point of order that the hon. Gentleman raised.
§ Mr. BuchanI did not know whether you were addressing me, Mr. Walker.
§ The ChairmanI am addressing the hon. Gentleman. There is no obligation on the Home Secretary to speak a second time, nor do I have the power to require him or any other hon. Member to do so.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 163, Noes 232.
118| Division No. 33] | [10.05 pm |
| AYES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Armstrong, Hilary |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy |
| Allason, Rupert | Ashton, Joe |
| Allen, Graham | Banks, Tony (Newham NW) |
| Anderson, Donald | Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich) |
| Barron, Kevin | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Battle, John | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Beckett, Margaret | Leighton, Ron |
| Beith, A. J. | Lestor, Joan (Eccles) |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Litherland, Robert |
| Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish) | Livingstone, Ken |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Lofthouse, Geoffrey |
| Blair, Tony | McAllion, John |
| Boateng, Paul | McAvoy, Thomas |
| Boyes, Roland | McCartney, Ian |
| Bradley, Keith | Macdonald, Calum A. |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | McFall, John |
| Buchan, Norman | McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) |
| Buckley, George J. | McKelvey, William |
| Caborn, Richard | McLeish, Henry |
| Callaghan, Jim | Maclennan, Robert |
| Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley) | McWilliam, John |
| Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Madden, Max |
| Carlile Alex (Mont'g) | Mahon, Mrs Alice |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Marek, Dr John |
| Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) | Martlew, Eric |
| Clelland, David | Maxton, John |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Meale, Alan |
| Cohen, Harry | Michael, Alun |
| Corbett, Robin | Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Morgan, Rhodri |
| Crowther, Stan | Morley, Elliott |
| Cryer, Bob | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Cummings, John | Mowlam, Marjorie |
| Darling, Alistair | Mullin, Chris |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
| Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) | O'Brien, William |
| Dewar, Donald | Owen, Rt Hon Dr David |
| Dixon, Don | Patchett, Terry |
| Eadie, Alexander | Pendry, Tom |
| Evans, John (St Helens N) | Pike, Peter L. |
| Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E) | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Fatchett, Derek | Prescott, John |
| Fearn, Ronald | Randall, Stuart |
| Field, Frank (Birkenhead) | Redmond, Martin |
| Fisher, Mark | Reid, Dr John |
| Flannery, Martin | Robertson, George |
| Flynn, Paul | Robinson, Geoffrey |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Rogers, Allan |
| Foster, Derek | Rooker, Jeff |
| Foulkes, George | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Fyfe, Maria | Ruddock, Joan |
| Galloway, George | Salmond, Alex |
| George, Bruce | Sheerman, Barry |
| Godman, Dr Norman A. | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Gordon, Mildred | Short, Clare |
| Gould, Bryan | Skinner, Dennis |
| Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) | Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury) |
| Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | Snape, Peter |
| Grocott, Bruce | Soley, Clive |
| Harman, Ms Harriet | Spearing, Nigel |
| Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Strang, Gavin |
| Haynes, Frank | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Henderson, Doug | Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck) |
| Hinchliffe, David | Turner, Dennis |
| Hood, Jimmy | Wall, Pat |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Walley, Joan |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath) | Welsh, Andrew (Angus E) |
| Howells, Geraint | Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N) |
| Hoyle, Doug | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Hughes, John (Coventry NE) | Williams, Rt Hon Alan |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then) |
| Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) | Wilson, Brian |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark) | Winnick, David |
| Illsley, Eric | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Ingram, Adam | |
| Janner, Greville | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) | Mr. Ken Eastham and |
| Kennedy, Charles | Mr. Jimmy Dunnachie. |
| Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil |
| NOES | |
| Adley, Robert | Emery, Sir Peter |
| Alexander, Richard | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Evennett, David |
| Amos, Alan | Fallon, Michael |
| Arbuthnot, James | Favell, Tony |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Fishburn, John Dudley |
| Ashby, David | Fookes, Dame Janet |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Forman, Nigel |
| Atkins, Robert | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Atkinson, David | Forth, Eric |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Fox, Sir Marcus |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Franks, Cecil |
| Batiste, Spencer | Freeman, Roger |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | French, Douglas |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Fry, Peter |
| Benyon, W. | Gale, Roger |
| Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Gill, Christopher |
| Boswell, Tim | Glyn, Dr Alan |
| Bottomley, Peter | Goodhart, Sir Philip |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n) | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) | Gorman, Mrs Teresa |
| Bowis, John | Gow, Ian |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Gower, Sir Raymond |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) |
| Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's) | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Browne, John (Winchester) | Gregory, Conal |
| Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) |
| Burns, Simon | Ground, Patrick |
| Burt, Alistair | Grylls, Michael |
| Butcher, John | Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn |
| Butler, Chris | Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) |
| Butterfill, John | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Carlisle, John, (Luton N) | Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) |
| Carrington, Matthew | Harris, David |
| Carttiss, Michael | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | Hayward, Robert |
| Chapman, Sydney | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Chope, Christopher | Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE) |
| Clark, Hon Alan (Plym'th S'n) | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Hind, Kenneth |
| Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe) | Hunt, David (Wirral W) |
| Colvin, Michael | Hunter, Andrew |
| Conway, Derek | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) | Irvine, Michael |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Couchman, James | Jones, Robert B (Herts W) |
| Cran, James | Kilfedder, James |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) |
| Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Knapman, Roger |
| Dicks, Terry | Knight, Greg (Derby North) |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Knowles, Michael |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Lang, Ian |
| Dover, Den | Latham, Michael |
| Dunn, Bob | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Durant, Tony | Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) |
| Eggar, Tim | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Sackville, Hon Tom |
| Lightbown, David | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Lilley, Peter | Scott, Nicholas |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Luce, Rt Hon Richard | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Lyell, Sir Nicholas | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Macfarlane, Sir Neil | Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) |
| MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire) | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Maclean, David | Shersby, Michael |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Sims, Roger |
| McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) | Speed, Keith |
| Major, Rt Hon John | Speller, Tony |
| Malins, Humfrey | Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W) |
| Mans, Keith | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Maples, John | Squire, Robin |
| Marlow, Tony | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Stern, Michael |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Stevens, Lewis |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) |
| Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick | Stradling Thomas, Sir John |
| Mellor, David | Sumberg, David |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Summerson, Hugo |
| Mills, Iain | Taylor, John M (Solihull) |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Mitchell, Sir David | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Moate, Roger | Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) |
| Monro, Sir Hector | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Moss, Malcolm | Thorne, Neil |
| Moynihan, Hon Colin | Thurnham, Peter |
| Mudd, David | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Neale, Gerrard | Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) |
| Nelson, Anthony | Tracey, Richard |
| Neubert, Michael | Trippier, David |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| Norris, Steve | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley | Warren, Kenneth |
| Oppenheim, Phillip | Watts, John |
| Paice, James | Wells, Bowen |
| Patten, Chris (Bath) | Wheeler, John |
| Patten, John (Oxford W) | Whitney, Ray |
| Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Porter, Barry (Wirral S) | Wilkinson, John |
| Porter, David (Waveney) | Wilshire, David |
| Portillo, Michael | Winterton, Mrs Ann |
| Powell, William (Corby) | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Price, Sir David | Wood, Timothy |
| Raison, Rt Hon Timothy | Yeo, Tim |
| Redwood, John | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Renton, Tim | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Riddick, Graham | |
| Roe, Mrs Marion | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Rowe, Andrew | Mr. Kenneth Carlisle and |
| Ryder, Richard | Mr. Alan Howarth. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ To report Progress and ask leave to sit again.— [Mr. Chapman.]
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again tomorrow.