§
Amendment made: No. 239, in Title, line 3, after '1976', insert—
`to establish a body, Housing for Wales, having functions relating to housing associations'.—[Mr. Waldegrave.]
§ Order for Third Reading read.
§ [Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, and Prince of Wales's Consent, on behalf of the Duchy of Cornwall, signified.]
11.50 pm§ Mr. WaldegraveI beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
This is one of the most important of the Government's Bills and one with which I am exceedingly proud to be associated—[Interruption.] The normal squeaks and groans of a party being dragged slowly into the latter half of the 20th century are all too clearly audible from Labour Members. We have already noticed the Leader of the Opposition dragging along behind our chariot. He is 162 already moving. In due course he will take the trouble to explain matters to some of his hon. Friends who listen with their mouths.
Everyone knows that it is a scandal that there are 500,000 or so empty properties in the private sector in Britain and that a large number of the properties are empty because of the workings of the Rent Acts, one of the other unpleasant aspects of which are the practices of the sort of person to whom the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) referred. The people about whom the hon. Gentleman bellowed are products of the legislation that the hon. Gentleman supports. In conditions of scarcity and black markets, such people are produced.
At last we are introducing a sensible measure to bring private rented accommodation back into use, to drive the bad money out with proper investment in good housing by serious investors who will manage their housing properly. That will help the mobility of labour and the homeless about whom the Labour party claim to be so full of care. It will help the young and all those who are excluded by the present failure of the housing market.
We are bringing the housing association movement into a new system whereby it will be able to borrow on the markets the money that is available to provide more social housing. That is absolutely right and is supported by all those who have thought about the matter for a moment.—[Interruption.]
The cause of all the noise and uproar from the Labour party and which has the Labour party running scared is that we will be going into some of the badly managed council estates with the housing action trusts and we will be showing the council tenants that it is possible to manage the properties properly and that there are better ways of managing housing than they are used to in boroughs such as Southwark, to which the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) referred. After a forthright programme of improvements on arrears, that borough has managed to increase them by 35 per cent. Another campaign like that and the borough's housing bill will be enormous.
The Labour party has made the most racket and least progress in its arguments about the fact that we are giving a new right to tenants. What frightens the Labour party most is that the tenants who want to escape will be allowed to do so. That is not my phrase; it is from a paper produced in the London borough of Lambeth. It said, "If we are not careful and do not start looking after property properly, we may find the tenants escaping to housing associations." That will be satisfactory for those tenants.
I make one prediction. When the Bill has been on the statute book for a while, in spite of all the witty remarks from the hon. Member for Brent, South (Mr. Boateng), all the sedentary interventions from the hon. Member from Walsall, North, the puns from the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) and the rest of the battery of deterrents that have been used against the Bill, the Labour party will find that there are good things about it. After a year or two, the Transport and General Workers Union will accept it and it will become Labour party policy.
The hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen) expressed his understandable concern about BISF houses not being designated as defective. I sympathise with him as I have similar problems with houses, though not of that design, in my constituency. I am perfectly willing to discuss the problem with him, but I do not want him to believe 163 that we shall easily add anything to the defective housing list. There may, however, be other ways of giving help, and I should be glad to talk to him about housing investment programe allocations.
We are sending to the House of Lords—I hope for their Lordships' approval—one of the flagship Bills of this Parliament. It is a Bill of which, in the long term, the House will be exceedingly proud.
§ Mr. SoleyThe Government will regret the Bill. They are dragging housing back into the 19th century. They have forgotten that local authorities built us out of the slums of the 19th century and the housing crises after the two world wars.
The Bill has broken the consensus on housing and threatens to divide the housing association movement. It has put private tenants at risk. I warn the Government that they are putting many private tenants at risk, and they know it. They have put public tenants at risk. They have frightened them with their proposals to undermine local democracy and the way in which the voting system operates. They have made a mockery of any claims about the democratic process of giving people a right to choose a different landlord. When they first floated this idea, we said, "We do not mind tenants having a right to choose a different landlord, but if that is a right it should apply to the private sector and where there is a non-resident landlord." The argument should be about the standards of management of housing.
In the small print of the Bill one finds that there is a voting system that allows the dead to vote and allows empty properties to be counted as a vote in favour of a transfer. Need we wonder why people are angry about the Bill's proposals?
At best, the Bill is irrelevant to the housing needs of this country; at worst it is catastrophic and will create a crisis to which even this Government will have to respond.
The Government have talked about choice. What choice does a person have who is living in a cardboard box barely a few hundred yards from here? What choice have people who have been taken in as homeless by local authorities—whose number has doubled since the Government took office? What choice does a child have who spends two or three years in bed-and-breakfast accommodation? Bed-and-breakfast accommodation hardly existed in anything like its present form until the Government took office. It did not exist under previous Conservative or Labour Governments, but, by God, it exists under this Government in a far worse form than ever before.
What chance does anybody have, with the present house price inflation, to get a house that they can afford if their salary is relatively low? What chance do they have to trade up if they have had children and need a larger home? While house price inflation rockets out of control, what chance does anybody have of renting at market rents when in certain areas they are known to be at least £100 per week and rising? All that the Government can say is that they will increase housing benefit. We know that they have cut it eight times already and propose to do so again.
The Bill will be a Rachman's charter. One saw panic on Minister's faces when the business enterprise scheme was 164 introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in a desperate attempt to get more private money into the private sector, but with no safeguards worth mentioning. Just as in 1957, when the controls were taken off and Rachman emerged, so these days there has been a dramatic loss of private property. Half a million homes have gone from the private rented sector in the past eight years—more than at any other time, except for just after 1957. I sadly predict that the people will regret the Bill and ultimately, thank heavens, so will the Government. That may be one of the few good things to come from it.
§ 12 midnight
§ Mr. Simon HughesWhen the numbers of the homeless in Britain were at their highest ever, the Government came to the House with a Bill that did not once mention the homeless. Since November, we have spent a long time trying to make a bad Bill a little better. There have been more amendments than the House could properly cope with on Report. The Government resisted and said, "We do not need time. It can be rushed through. It will be all right." Even now, we have only just begun to expose the weakness and feebleness of the Government's position.
For private tenants who seek security, the Government will give them less security and higher rents. For the housing association movement which wanted a guarantee of independence, free from the public sector and from the private sector, we see a Government ever more determined to push it into the private sector's arms. With housing action trusts, local authorities that are battling to deal with the needs of past and future tenants are told by the Government, "We are coming in. We shall take over what property of yours we want and, if necessary, you will pay us to do so, even if you have no say."
The Government say that they are giving council tenants a choice. The only way they can do that is by producing a voting system that does not exist even behind the iron curtain. Last Thursday, the Prime Minister naively said:
I thought that we arranged that it was a majority of those voting".—[Official Report, 23 June 1988; Vol 135, c. 1257.]But the Secretary of State and the Department of the Environment had blinded the Prime Minister with their science. They have gone back on her word of last June. They have put into the Bill a provision that clearly means that people can find their property taken away from them, even though no one may have voted for that to happen.In the year when the Budget gives to the rich, when the poll tax saves thousands of pounds on the houses of Cabinet members and when the Government's legislation screws the homeless and those dependent on social security, giving them less money, people at the bottom of the housing ladder hear the Government say, "Trust us, because we trust the market." We would rather trust people to tell us what they want. The opportunity for agreement on how we house our nation should have been taken. After the Bill, the people will be as before—two nations, the well housed and the rest—and the Government will have increased the numbers of the rest, their pain and suffering. We shall vote against this disgraceful Bill because it is a legacy of an uncaring, unsympathetic and callous Government.
§ Question put, That the Bill be read the Third time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 231, Noes 168.
167| Division No. 383] | [12.03 am |
| AYES | |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Franks, Cecil |
| Alexander, Richard | Freeman, Roger |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Gardiner, George |
| Allason, Rupert | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Amess, David | Gill, Christopher |
| Arbuthnot, James | Goodhart, Sir Philip |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Ashby, David | Gow, Ian |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW) |
| Atkins, Robert | Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Gregory, Conal |
| Baldry, Tony | Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E') |
| Batiste, Spencer | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) |
| Bendall, Vivian | Grist, Ian |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Ground, Patrick |
| Benyon, W. | Grylls, Michael |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Boswell, Tim | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Bottomley, Peter | Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr') |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) |
| Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) | Harris, David |
| Bowis, John | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes | Hawkins, Christopher |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Hayes, Jerry |
| Brazier, Julian | Hayward, Robert |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Heddle, John |
| Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's) | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) | Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE) |
| Budgen, Nicholas | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Burns, Simon | Hind, Kenneth |
| Burt, Alistair | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) |
| Butcher, John | Holt, Richard |
| Butler, Chris | Hordern, Sir Peter |
| Butterfill, John | Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) |
| Carrington, Matthew | Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) |
| Carttiss, Michael | Hunt, David (Wirral W) |
| Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda | Hunter, Andrew |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | Irvine, Michael |
| Chope, Christopher | Jack, Michael |
| Clark, Hon Alan (Plym'th S'n) | Janman, Tim |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe) | Jones, Robert B (Herts W) |
| Colvin, Michael | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) | Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine |
| Cope, Rt Hon John | Key, Robert |
| Couchman, James | King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) |
| Cran, James | Knowles, Michael |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Latham, Michael |
| Curry, David | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Davis, David (Boothferry) | Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant) |
| Day, Stephen | Maclean, David |
| Devlin, Tim | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Miscampbell, Norman |
| Dicks, Terry | Moate, Roger |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Morris, M (N'hampton S) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Neale, Gerrard |
| Dover, Den | Nelson, Anthony |
| Durant, Tony | Neubert, Michael |
| Dykes, Hugh | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Eggar, Tim | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) | Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley |
| Evennett, David | Page, Richard |
| Fallon, Michael | Paice, James |
| Farr, Sir John | Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil |
| Favell, Tony | Patnick, Irvine |
| Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Patten, Chris (Bath) |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Patten, John (Oxford W) |
| Forman, Nigel | Pawsey, James |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Forth, Eric | Porter, Barry (Wirral S) |
| Porter, David (Waveney) | Taylor, Ian (Esher) |
| Portillo, Michael | Taylor, John M (Solihull) |
| Price, Sir David | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Raffan, Keith | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Raison, Rt Hon Timothy | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Redwood, John | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Rhodes James, Robert | Thorne, Neil |
| Riddick, Graham | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas | Thurnham, Peter |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Roe, Mrs Marion | Tracey, Richard |
| Rost, Peter | Tredinnick, David |
| Rumbold, Mrs Angela | Trippier, David |
| Ryder, Richard | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Sackville, Hon Tom | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Sainsbury, Hon Tim | Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| Sayeed, Jonathan | Wakeham, Rt Hon John |
| Scott, Nicholas | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Shaw, David (Dover) | Walden, George |
| Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) | Waller, Gary |
| Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Watts, John |
| Shersby, Michael | Wells, Bowen |
| Sims, Roger | Wheeler, John |
| Skeet, Sir Trevor | Whitney, Ray |
| Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Soames, Hon Nicholas | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Speller, Tony | Wilkinson, John |
| Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W) | Winterton, Mrs Ann |
| Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Squire, Robin | Wolfson, Mark |
| Stanbrook, Ivor | Wood, Timothy |
| Steen, Anthony | Woodcock, Mike |
| Stern, Michael | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Stevens, Lewis | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) | |
| Stewart, Ian (Hertfordshire N) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Stokes, Sir John | Mr. David Lightbown and Mr. Peter Lloyd. |
| Stradling Thomas, Sir John | |
| Summerson, Hugo |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Cousins, Jim |
| Adams, Allen (Paisley N) | Crowther, Stan |
| Allen, Graham | Cryer, Bob |
| Alton, David | Cunliffe, Lawrence |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Dalyell, Tam |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Dixon, Don |
| Ashton, Joe | Dobson, Frank |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Doran, Frank |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | Dunnachie, Jimmy |
| Battle, John | Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth |
| Beckett, Margaret | Eastham, Ken |
| Beith, A. J. | Evans, John (St Helens N) |
| Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish) | Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n) |
| Blair, Tony | Fisher, Mark |
| Blunkett, David | Flannery, Martin |
| Boateng, Paul | Foot, Rt Hon Michael |
| Boyes, Roland | Foster, Derek |
| Bradley, Keith | Foulkes, George |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Fraser, John |
| Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E) | Fyfe, Maria |
| Buchan, Norman | Garrett, John (Norwich South) |
| Caborn, Richard | George, Bruce |
| Callaghan, Jim | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Gordon, Mildred |
| Cartwright, John | Gould, Bryan |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Graham, Thomas |
| Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) | Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) |
| Clay, Bob | Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) |
| Clelland, David | Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Grocott, Bruce |
| Cohen, Harry | Harman, Ms Harriet |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Healey, Rt Hon Denis |
| Corbett, Robin | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Henderson, Doug |
| Hinchliffe, David | O'Neill, Martin |
| Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Holland, Stuart | Patchett, Terry |
| Hood, Jimmy | Pendry, Tom |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Pike, Peter L. |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath) | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Howells, Geraint | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Hughes, John (Coventry NE) | Quin, Ms Joyce |
| Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) | Radice, Giles |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark) | Randall, Stuart |
| Janner, Greville | Reid, Dr John |
| Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Môn) | Richardson, Jo |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Robinson, Geoffrey |
| Kirkwood, Archy | Rogers, Allan |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Rooker, Jeff |
| Leighton, Ron | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Lestor, Joan (Eccles) | Rowlands, Ted |
| Lewis, Terry | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Livsey, Richard | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Lofthouse, Geoffrey | Short, Clare |
| McAllion, John | Skinner, Dennis |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
| McCartney, Ian | Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury) |
| Macdonald, Calum A. | Soley, Clive |
| McFall, John | Spearing, Nigel |
| McKelvey, William | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| McLeish, Henry | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Madden, Max | Stott, Roger |
| Mahon, Mrs Alice | Straw, Jack |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Turner, Dennis |
| Martlew, Eric | Vaz, Keith |
| Maxton, John | Wall, Pat |
| Meacher, Michael | Wallace, James |
| Meale, Alan | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Michael, Alun | Wareing, Robert N. |
| Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) | Williams, Rt Hon Alan |
| Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then) |
| Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) | Wilson, Brian |
| Moonie, Dr Lewis | Winnick, David |
| Morgan, Rhodri | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Morley, Elliott | Worthington, Tony |
| Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Wray, Jimmy |
| Mowlam, Marjorie | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Mullin, Chris | |
| Murphy, Paul | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Nellist, Dave | Mr. Frank Haynes and Mrs. Llin Golding. |
| O'Brien, William |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Bill read the Third time, and passed.