§ 'The Secretary of State may empower local education authorities to negotiate an agreement on pay and conditions for all those involved in the supervision of school meals.'.—[Mr. Fatchett.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Mr. FatchettI beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
It is significant that at the end of this lengthy Committee stage, new clause 18 deals with the supervision of the school meals service. School meals provide the best illustration of the different approaches adopted by the Opposition and the Government to this service. School meals were last discussed during the Report stage proceedings earlier this year on the Education (No. 2) Bill. The Secretary of State for Education and Science will remember that on that night we succeeded in abolishing corporal punishment. He will be remembered as the Secretary of State who abolished corporal punishment. When we debated the school meals service on that occasion I moved a new clause that would have set national standards for the school meals service. The new clause was defeated, but that came as no surprise. However, it is significant that the next day Buckinghamshire county council discussed its provision of a school meals service and decided to abolish it.
The difference between the policies adopted by the Opposition and the Government are best reflected at local level—by decisions similar to that which was taken by Buckinghamshire county council. It has resulted in the loss of jobs and in the loss of a service that was important to so many children in Buckinghamshire.
What happened in Buckinghamshire is typical of what has happened to the school meals service since this Government were elected. Cuts have been made each year in the rate support grant and that has led to cuts in the school meals service. Rate support grant cuts lead to a reduction in the quality and the quantity of the service. They lead also to an increase in the price of school meals.
My hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) has compared the price of school meals in various local authorities. His survey shows that Labour-controlled authorities provide the best and the cheapest school meals service. In Labour-controlled authorities the price of a school meal is 57p, whereas in Conservative-controlled authorities it is 67p. In the middle but, as usual, leaning towards Conservative-controlled authorities, alliance-controlled authorities charge 65p. If one lives in either an alliance-controlled or a Conservative-controlled authority, it is impossible to detect the difference.
The alliance tell us that the best value for the electorate is a balanced Parliament and balanced local authorities. Those who live in Somerset suffer the ill-effects of a balanced local government in terms of school meals. The price of a school meal in Somerset is 75p, which is above the average price that is charged by Conservative-controlled authorities.
§ Mr. Peter BruinvelsWill the hon. Gentleman give way?
§ Mr. FatchettI am surprised that at this stage the hon. Gentleman wants to intervene, but I shall not give way to him at this point.
The Black report came to the conclusion that the nutritional value of school meals is very important for all children. Its conclusion was reinforced earlier this year by a House of Lords Select Committee report on the school meals service. This Government and Conservative-controlled local authorities are trying to ensure that school children are provided with cheap, quick meals and junk food. They refuse to provide an adequate school meals service.
§ Mr. Peter BruinvelsWhat about the food?
§ Mr. FatchettThe hon. Gentleman asks, "What about the food?" Under his Government the nutritional value of school meals has declined. New clause 18 would provide local authorities with the power to negotiate an agreement on pay and conditions that would lead to the provision of a nationwide school meals service.
The Opposition believe in negotiation and in collective bargaining. New clause 18 provides for collective bargaining and for a negotiated agreement for those involved in the supervision of school meals.
At the moment there is substantial variation between authorities. There are variations in schemes, conditions of service and pay for individuals employed in the service. We have those differences and the head teachers' organisations have said to us, and I am sure they have said to Conservative Members, that the only way in which we can make progress is to have a nationally negotiated scheme that will give the head teachers and their organisations what they wish.
§ Mr. Cecil Franks (Barrow and Furness)On a point of order, Mr. Armstrong. Can you give some guidance? As I understand it, our deliberations having reached 2.30 pm on Thursday afternoon — [HON. MEMBERS: "Wednesday."] the business for Thursday will not take place. Not only will the business not take place, but, equally, Prime Minister's Question Time will not take place. There are hon. Members on both sides of the House who have an interest in Prime Minister's Question Time. Is it not a disgrace that the Labour party should—
§ The First Deputy ChairmanOrder. I remind hon. Members that we are in Committee. It is not for me to give procedural decisions about the meetings of the House. We must continue with the Bill.
§ Mr. Neil Kinnock (Islwyn)Further to that point of order, Mr. Armstrong. There is a danger of the Committee being misled by the point of order of the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (Mr. Franks). You will know, Mr. Armstrong, that there are many opportunities for the Prime Minister to make a statement to the House and that would provide a great opportunity not only for the Prime Minister to be questioned, but, a novel opportunity for this Prime Minister, for her to give some answers.
§ The First Deputy ChairmanOrder. We are in Committee and we should proceed on that basis.
§ The First Deputy ChairmanOrder. I will not take any more points of order on procedure.
§ Mr. Marlowrose—
§ The First Deputy ChairmanOrder. I remind the House again that we are in Committee; unless the points of order are directed to the Committee proceedings, I will not take any more.
§ Mr. FatchettOver the past 24 hours my hon. Friends and I have fought for democratic rights in Britain. That is why we have opposed the Bill that takes negotiating rights from trade unionists and teachers. [Interruption.] If Conservative Members do not want to listen to the educational argument and want to raise bogus points of order. If at any time they had wanted to stop the deliberations of this Committee they had the opportunity to do so. They have not done so.
This has been an important education debate. People who are involved in education have listened to this debate. They have seen the reaction of the Government to democratic rights and they will have listened to the reaction of Conservative Members who are not prepared and not interested in the issues we have been debating. Over the past 24 hours we have been involved in fundamental issues. New clause 18 is a practical and more prosaic issue but it is important for the children of our country. I ask my hon. Friends to join me in supporting new clause 18.
§ Mr. James Wallace (Orkney and Shetland)On a point of order, Mr. Armstrong. Since the business that was provisionally set down for Thursday, has lapsed, may we expect the Leader of the House to make a statement on business and whether—
§ The First Deputy ChairmanOrder. The hon. Gentleman can raise that point of order when we are no longer in Committee.
§ Mr. DunnI approach this part of our proceedings with some anxiety because I believe that our debates over the past 24 hours—
§ Mr. Bruinvels23.
§ Mr. Dunn—have been cheerful relevant and robust, and we have won the vote on every occasion. Needless to say, we have won the arguments [Interruption.]
§ The First Deputy ChairmanOrder. We have had long debates during the night and we would continue our Committee proceedings much better if sedentary interventions were more restrained from both sides of the House.
§ Mr. DunnI always enjoy the comments of the hon. Member for Leeds, Central (Mr. Fatchett). However, when he talks about trampling on people's rights and about upholding a concept of Socialist democracy, I can remember, over a period of some 20 years, a catalogue of abuse from the Labour party in the context of people's rights. It started over 20 years ago with the Burmah Oil legislation—[Interruption.] leading on, in the context of new clause 18, to the introduction of circular 10/65 which abolished our grammar schools, and the iniquitous Education Act 1976 which was supported by the other Socialist parties in the House. That took away the rights of local authorities to organise secondary provision as they 645 felt fit. The latest catalogue, in the context of new clause 18, is that the Labour party is committed to the abolition of the assisted places scheme and existing grammar schools. It will abolish the city technology colleges—
§ The First Deputy ChairmanOrder. The hon. Gentleman must come back to the supervision of school meals.
§ Mr. DunnIn all the free-standing establishments where school meals are served the Labour party would seek to abolish them and deny people's choice.
I thought that the purpose of the debate was to discuss new clause 18. [HON. MEMBERS: "Get on with it then."] We shall do it. [Interruption.] Labour Members should listen. We have set all local authorities free from Socialism of the direct and indirect collectivist sense. I look forward to the day, in five years' time when we see Socialism reduced to the numbers currently occupied by the Social Democratic party.
I suggest that the House rejects new clause 18.
§ Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 138, Noes 211.
647| Division No. 39] | [2.38 pm |
| AYES | |
| Adams, Allen (Paisley N) | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald |
| Alton, David | Freud, Clement |
| Anderson, Donald | Garrett, W. E. |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Golding, Mrs Llin |
| Ashdown, Paddy | Hamilton, W. W. (Fife Central) |
| Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) | Hancock, Michael |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) |
| Barron, Kevin | Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall) |
| Beckett, Mrs Margaret | Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath) |
| Beith, A. J. | Howells, Geraint |
| Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh) | Hoyle, Douglas |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Hughes, Roy (Newport East) |
| Blair, Anthony | Janner, Hon Greville |
| Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E) | John, Brynmor |
| Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) | Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil |
| Bruce, Malcolm | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Caborn, Richard | Lambie, David |
| Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) | Lamond, James |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Cartwright, John | Leighton, Ronald |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Clay, Robert | Livsey, Richard |
| Clelland, David Gordon | Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S) | Lofthouse, Geoffrey |
| Coleman, Donald | McCartney, Hugh |
| Conlan, Bernard | McDonald, Dr Oonagh |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton North) | McKay, Allen (Penistone) |
| Corbett, Robin | McKelvey, William |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | McTaggart, Robert |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) | Madden, Max |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l) | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
| Dewar, Donald | Martin, Michael |
| Dixon, Donald | Maxton, John |
| Dobson, Frank | Maynard, Miss Joan |
| Dormand, Jack | Meadowcroft, Michael |
| Dubs, Alfred | Michie, William |
| Eadie, Alex | Mikardo, Ian |
| Eastham, Ken | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Edwards, Bob (W'h'mpt'n SE) | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) |
| Evans, John (St. Helens N) | Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) |
| Fatchett, Derek | Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) |
| Field, Frank (Birkenhead) | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn) | Nellist, David |
| Flannery, Martin | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | O'Brien, William |
| Foster, Derek | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Owen, Rt Hon Dr David | Skinner, Dennis |
| Park, George | Snape, Peter |
| Parry, Robert | Soley, Clive |
| Pavitt, Laurie | Spearing, Nigel |
| Pendry, Tom | Stott, Roger |
| Pike, Peter | Strang, Gavin |
| Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Radice, Giles | Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen) |
| Raynsford, Nick | Thorne, Stan (Preston) |
| Redmond, Martin | Tinn, James |
| Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S) | Wallace, James |
| Richardson, Ms Jo | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Rooker, J. W. | Wareing, Robert |
| Ross, Ernest (Dundee W) | Weetch, Ken |
| Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) | Welsh, Michael |
| Rowlands, Ted | Williams, Rt Hon A. |
| Sedgemore, Brian | Winnick, David |
| Sheldon, Rt Hon R. | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Shields, Mrs Elizabeth | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Shore, Rt Hon Peter | |
| Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Short, Mrs R.(W'hampt'n NE) | Mr. Mark Fisher and |
| Silkin, Rt Hon J. | Mr. Ron Davies. |
| NOES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Ancram, Michael | Forth, Eric |
| Ashby, David | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Fox, Sir Marcus |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th E) | Franks, Cecil |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Vall'y) | Fraser, Peter (Angus East) |
| Baldry, Tony | Freeman, Roger |
| Bellingham, Henry | Fry, Peter |
| Bendall, Vivian | Gale, Roger |
| Benyon, William | Galley, Roy |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Gardiner, George (Reigate) |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Glyn, Dr Alan |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Grant, Sir Anthony |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Greenway, Harry |
| Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard | Gregory, Conal |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) |
| Brinton, Tim | Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom) |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Hannam, John |
| Bruinvels, Peter | Hargreaves, Kenneth |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Harris, David |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Harvey, Robert |
| Burt, Alistair | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Butcher, John | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael |
| Butterfill, John | Hawkins, Sir Paul (N'folk SW) |
| Carlisle, John (Luton N) | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Henderson, Barry |
| Cash, William | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Hicks, Robert |
| Chope, Christopher | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Churchill, W. S. | Hill, James |
| Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n) | Holt, Richard |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Howard, Michael |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) |
| Cockeram, Eric | Hubbard-Miles, Peter |
| Colvin, Michael | Hunt, David (Wirral W) |
| Cope, John | Hunter, Andrew |
| Corrie, John | Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick |
| Couchman, James | Jessel, Toby |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. | Jones, Robert (Herts W) |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Sir Edward | Key, Robert |
| Dunn, Robert | King, Roger (B'ham N'field) |
| Dykes, Hugh | Knight, Greg (Derby N) |
| Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke) | Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) |
| Eggar, Tim | Knox, David |
| Eyre, Sir Reginald | Lamont, Rt Hon Norman |
| Fallon, Michael | Lang, Ian |
| Farr, Sir John | Latham, Michael |
| Favell, Anthony | Lawler, Geoffrey |
| Fenner, Dame Peggy | Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel |
| Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Lester, Jim |
| Forman, Nigel | Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd) |
| Lightbown, David | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Lilley, Peter | Rossi, Sir Hugh |
| Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant) | Rost, Peter |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Rowe, Andrew |
| McCrindle, Robert | Rumbold, Mrs Angela |
| Macfarlane, Neil | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute) | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| McQuarrie, Albert | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Madel, David | Shersby, Michael |
| Major, John | Silvester, Fred |
| Malone, Gerald | Sims, Roger |
| Marland, Paul | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
| Marlow, Antony | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Maude, Hon Francis | Soames, Hon Nicholas |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Spencer, Derek |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Mayhew, Sir Patrick | Squire, Robin |
| Merchant, Piers | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Stern, Michael |
| Miller, Hal (B'grove) | Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton) |
| Mills, Iain (Meriden) | Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood) |
| Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) | Stewart, Ian (Hertf'dshire N) |
| Mitchell, David (Hants NW) | Stradling Thomas, Sir John |
| Moate, Roger | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Morris, M. (N'hampton S) | Taylor, John (Solihull) |
| Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Moynihan, Hon C. | Thompson, Donald (Calder V) |
| Neale, Gerrard | Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N) |
| Neubert, Michael | Thurnham, Peter |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Onslow, Cranley | Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) |
| Oppenheim, Phillip | Trippier, David |
| Ottaway, Richard | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Page, Sir John (Harrow W) | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Patten, J. (Oxf W & Abgdn) | Wakeham, Rt Hon John |
| Pattie, Geoffrey | Ward, John |
| Pawsey, James | Wardle, C. (Bexhill) |
| Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Watts, John |
| Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian | Wheeler, John |
| Powell, William (Corby) | Whitfield, John |
| Powley, John | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Price, Sir David | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Proctor, K. Harvey | Wolfson, Mark |
| Raffan, Keith | Wood, Timothy |
| Raison, Rt Hon Timothy | Woodcock, Michael |
| Rathbone, Tim | |
| Rhodes James, Robert | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Ridsdale, Sir Julian | Mr. Tony Durant and |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) | Mr. Michael Portillo. |
| Robinson, Mark (N'port W) |
§ Question accordingly negatived.