§ Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
10.22 pm§ Mr. Giles ShawIn responding to the debate initiated by the hon. Member for Tyne Bridge, I was making the point that, in the Metropolitan police district, static assemblies and meetings contributed substantially to the severe public disorders between 1974 and 1980. I deduce from that that the House would be extremely foolish to accept the advice of the Opposition that clause 14 should be deleted from the Bill.
I remind the House that, in extending to assemblies the proposals contained in the 1936 Act, the Government did not act in a fit of pique or a sudden thirst for additional powers. We acted on the advice of the Select Committee on Home Affairs. We acted with care and had discussions. We acted in a way that was consistent with the Government's purposes without ensuring that an advance notice requirement in respect of assemblies should be undertaken, but that a power to ban should not.
The police already maintain a presence at most demonstrations or pickets. They do so to fulfil their paramount duty in maintaining the Queen's peace. Clause 14 will not require the deployment of more officers or the wasteful use of police resources which might he more profitably employed in fighting crime. It will give the police effective powers to prevent crime by preventing disorder.
The rights to assemble, to picket and to demonstrate are not absolute rights. They should never be an excuse for intimidation or disorder. Every citizen has a right to live his life in peace and the right to protection under the law.
I said in Committee and to the hon. Member for Tyne Bridge, who referred to it in his opening address, that I would advise police officers, in the circular on the Bills provisions, that they should bear in mind the traditional rights of protest and the traditional freedom of assembly which have been so widely observed for many years when they interpret their obligations under the provisions of clause 14. I should like to place that undertaking which I gave in Committee on the record.
In part answer to the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery, I must say that there will be, although not in the statute, a clear expression of the rights to protest which people have traditionally enjoyed conveyed to officers as part of the context in which they execute their duties.
Clause 14 confers no power to ban assemblies. That is a most important point for the House to recognise. The Clause contains powers to enable major mischiefs to he avoided—to avoid serious public disorder, serious damage to property, serious disruption to the life of the community and intimidation of individuals. Do the Opposition seriously believe that the civil liberties of pickets and the right to demonstrate include the right to cause such evils? Surely not. Do they believe that the police should have powers to prevent these evils? Surely they do. Or is the Opposition's new-found, late interest in the problems of crime and of law and order, which is of such concern to the people we serve, a vote-catching operation, carefully timed for individual elections?
The Government believe that the merits of the clause and the bankruptcy of the Opposition's argument are in 1035 complete contrast. The Government believe in a balance between the right to assemble and the right of the individual to go about his business in peace, and so do the British people. They will take note of the Opposition's claim that to question the rights of a picket to intimidate or cause disorder is authoritarianism, and they will support our attempts to provide additional protection for the individual citizen from the bully boys and the thugs on the picket lines or elsewhere. I commend the clause. It should remain in the Bill as a cardinal principle of public order.
§ Mr. ClellandI remind the Minister that we have seen more lawlessness and disorder under this Government than under any other Government in living memory. The clause does not seek to improve law and order. It will not prevent one riot or many of the problems to which the Minister drew attention. It will restrict the individual liberty and freedoms of people who want to protest against the type of policies pursued by the Government. We shall vote against the clause.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 170, Noes 225.
1037| Division No. 165] | [10.30 pm |
| AYES | |
| Adams, Allen (Paisley N) | Dubs, Alfred |
| Alton, David | Duffy, A. E. P. |
| Anderson, Donald | Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Eadie, Alex |
| Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) | Eastham, Ken |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Evans, John (St. Helens N) |
| Barnett, Guy | Ewing, Harry |
| Barron, Kevin | Faulds, Andrew |
| Beckett, Mrs Margaret | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Beith, A. J. | Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn) |
| Bell, Stuart | Fisher, Mark |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Flannery, Martin |
| Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh) | Forrester, John |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Foster, Derek |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Foulkes, George |
| Blair, Anthony | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald |
| Boyes, Roland | Freud, Clement |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Garrett, W. E. |
| Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E) | George, Bruce |
| Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) | Godman, Dr Norman |
| Buchan, Norman | Golding, John |
| Caborn, Richard | Gould, Bryan |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. | Gourlay, Harry |
| Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) | Hamilton, W. W. (Fife Central) |
| Campbell, Ian | Hancock, Michael |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Harman, Ms Harriet |
| Canavan, Dennis | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter |
| Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y) | Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Haynes, Frank |
| Clay, Robert | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Clelland, David Gordon | Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall) |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S) | Home Robertson, John |
| Coleman, Donald | Howells, Geraint |
| Conlan, Bernard | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton North) | Hughes, Roy (Newport East) |
| Cook, Robin F. (Livingston) | Janner, Hon Greville |
| Corbett, Robin | John, Brynmor |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Craigen, J. M. | Kennedy, Charles |
| Crowther, Stan | Kilroy-Silk, Robert |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l) | Lambie, David |
| Deakins, Eric | Lamond, James |
| Dixon, Donald | Leighton, Ronald |
| Dormand, Jack | Lewis, Terence (Worsley) |
| Douglas, Dick | Litherland, Robert |
| Livsey, Richard | Richardson, Ms Jo |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) |
| Lofthouse, Geoffrey | Robertson, George |
| McCartney, Hugh | Rogers, Allan |
| McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Rooker, J. W. |
| McKelvey, William | Ross, Ernest (Dundee W) |
| MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Rowlands, Ted |
| Maclennan, Robert | Sedgemore, Brian |
| McTaggart, Robert | Sheldon, Rt Hon R. |
| McWilliam, John | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Madden, Max | Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood) |
| Marek, Dr John | Silkin, Rt Hon J. |
| Martin, Michael | Skinner, Dennis |
| Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury) |
| Maxton, John | Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'ds E) |
| Maynard, Miss Joan | Soley, Clive |
| Meacher, Michael | Spearing, Nigel |
| Meadowcroft, Michael | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Michie, William | Stott, Roger |
| Mikardo, Ian | Straw, Jack |
| Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) | Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen) |
| Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) | Thompson, J. (Wansbeck) |
| Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Thorne, Stan (Preston) |
| Nellist, David | Tinn, James |
| Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon | Torney, Tom |
| O'Brien, William | Wallace, James |
| O'Neill, Martin | Wareing, Robert |
| Park, George | White, James |
| Parry, Robert | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Pavitt, Laurie | Williams, Rt Hon A. |
| Pendry, Tom | Wilson, Gordon |
| Penhaligon, David | Winnick, David |
| Pike, Peter | Woodall, Alec |
| Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Prescott, John | |
| Randall, Stuart | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Raynsford, Nick | Mr. James Hamilton and |
| Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S) | Mr. Allen McKay. |
| NOES | |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Alexander, Richard | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Durant, Tony |
| Amess, David | Evennett, David |
| Ancram, Michael | Fenner, Mrs Peggy |
| Atkins, Robert (South Ribble) | Forman, Nigel |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th E) | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Vall'y) | Forth, Eric |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Franks, Cecil |
| Baldry, Tony | Fraser, Peter (Angus East) |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Fry, Peter |
| Bellingham, Henry | Gardiner, George (Reigate) |
| Best, Keith | Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde) |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Body, Sir Richard | Glyn, Dr Alan |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Gow, Ian |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Greenway, Harry |
| Bright, Graham | Gregory, Conal |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Griffiths, Sir Eldon |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes) | Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A. | Ground, Patrick |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom) |
| Budgen, Nick | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Burt, Alistair | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Butterfill, John | Hannam, John |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hargreaves, Kenneth |
| Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (W'ton S) | Harris, David |
| Carttiss, Michael | Harvey, Robert |
| Cash, William | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Chapman, Sydney | Hawksley, Warren |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Hayes, J. |
| Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe) | Hayward, Robert |
| Coombs, Simon | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Cope, John | Henderson, Barry |
| Couchman, James | Hickmet, Richard |
| Critchley, Julian | Hicks, Robert |
| Crouch, David | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Dicks, Terry | Hind, Kenneth |
| Hirst, Michael | Major, John |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Malins, Humfrey |
| Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling) | Malone, Gerald |
| Holt, Richard | Maples, John |
| Howard, Michael | Marland, Paul |
| Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A) | Marlow, Antony |
| Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) | Mates, Michael |
| Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N) | Mather, Carol |
| Hubbard-Miles, Peter | Maude, Hon Francis |
| Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Hunter, Andrew | Mayhew, Sir Patrick |
| Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas | Mellor, David |
| Jackson, Robert | Merchant, Piers |
| Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick | Miller, Hal (B'grove) |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Mills, Iain (Meriden) |
| Jones, Robert (Herts W) | Miscampbell, Norman |
| Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Mitchell, David (Hants NW) |
| Kershaw, Sir Anthony | Monro, Sir Hector |
| Key, Robert | Morris, M. (N'hampton S) |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'field) | Mudd, David |
| Knight, Greg (Derby N) | Neale, Gerrard |
| Knowles, Michael | Needham, Richard |
| Knox, David | Nelson, Anthony |
| Lamont, Norman | Newton, Tony |
| Lang, Ian | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Latham, Michael | Onslow, Cranley |
| Lawler, Geoffrey | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Page, Richard (Herts SW) |
| Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) | Patten, J. (Oxf W & Abgdn) |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Pattie, Geoffrey |
| Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd) | Pawsey, James |
| Lightbown, David | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Lilley, Peter | Pollock, Alexander |
| Lloyd, Ian (Havant) | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Lord, Michael | Powley, John |
| Luce, Rt Hon Richard | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Lyell, Nicholas | Price, Sir David |
| McCurley, Mrs Anna | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| Macfarlane, Neil | Raffan, Keith |
| MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Maclean, David John | Rathbone, Tim |
| McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) | Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey | Terlezki, Stefan |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) | Thompson, Donald (Calder V) |
| Robinson, Mark (N'port W) | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Roe, Mrs Marion | Thurnham, Peter |
| Rost, Peter | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Rowe, Andrew | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Rumbold, Mrs Angela | van Straubenzee, Sir W. |
| Ryder, Richard | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Sainsbury, Hon Timothy | Viggers, Peter |
| Sayeed, Jonathan | Waddington, David |
| Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) | Wakeham, Rt Hon John |
| Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') | Walden, George |
| Shelton, William (Streatham) | Walker, Bill (T'side N) |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Waller, Gary |
| Silvester, Fred | Ward, John |
| Sims, Roger | Wardle, C. (Bexhill) |
| Skeet, Sir Trevor | Watson, John |
| Soames, Hon Nicholas | Watts, John |
| Speed, Keith | Wells, Bowen (Hertford) |
| Spencer, Derek | Wells, Sir John (Maidstone) |
| Spicer, Jim (Dorset W) | Wheeler, John |
| Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) | Whitney, Raymond |
| Squire, Robin | Winterton, Mrs Ann |
| Stanbrook, Ivor | Wolfson, Mark |
| Stanley, Rt Hon John | Wood, Timothy |
| Stern, Michael | Woodcock, Michael |
| Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton) | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood) | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Sumberg, David | |
| Taylor, John (Solihull) | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) | Mr. Michael Neubert and |
| Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman | Mr. Peter Lloyd. |
| Temple-Morris, Peter |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Amendments made: No. 43, in page 10, line 25 leave out 'any conditions which prescribe' and insert 'such conditions as to'.
§ No. 46, in page 11, line 3 after 'constable', insert 'in uniform'.—[Mr. Giles Shaw.]