§ Lords amendment: In page 1, line 12, leave out "seventeen" and insert "fifteen".
§ 8.35 p.m.
§ The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Guy Barnett)I beg to move, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment.
The motion is designed to restore to five years the period for which office control powers will be extended. The Lords amendment reduced the period to three years.
The original period of control was seven years. When the Conservative Government decided to renew it in 1972, they opted for a further period of five years. It seems sensible to follow that precedent in 1977.
Five years is a suitable interval for monitoring the operation of the control and reviewing its effects. A shorter period would create uncertainty in the property world and among local authorities in the areas subject to control. It would also involve promoting further legislation to renew control after an unreasonably short period of time if the control were still then required.
The need for the control will be kept continuously under review and under Section 86(1) of the 1971 Act as amended in 1972 the control powers may be brought to an end by Order in Council at any time before the end of the specified period. There is every justification, therefore, in insisting that the period should be five years.
§ Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg (Hampstead)The whole system of office development permits has few friends, and it is necessary to remind the House of one or two facts in suggesting that we ought not to disagree with the Lords.
Both parties in the Greater London Council have called for the abolition of ODPs—in October 1976 under Labour 745 control, and in June 1977 under Conservative control, and on each occasion there was party unanimity. That is the first matter which should be made clear.
It is also right to point out that in 1976 the Government published the Office Location Review, which was prepared by an inter-departmental team of officials. The review noted that the principal reason for introducing office control in 1964 had been the view that, without it, employment in London would continue to increase rapidly, putting unmanageable pressures on transport and housing. It recognised that this no longer applied, with population and employment falling in London and with a steady fall in commuting into Central London over a number of years.
The review also acknowledged that the new structure plan system, reinforced by local government reorganisation, provided a better instrument than existed before for local authorities to achieve the objective of an appropriate distribution of office employment within the South-East Region. To that extent, it reduced the need to maintain ODP control for the purpose. The objective, which had been given more weight since 1974, was the encouragement of transfers of jobs to the assisted areas. The major constraint on this was the total supply of mobile jobs. Within this constraint, the review considered other factors which influenced firms and tended to militate against the objective.
Relocation involves costs; benefits are longer term. Common concerns are the willingness of key staff to accept the unheaval of moving—and one needs only to cite, for example, the attitude of civil servants following the Hardman Report on that—links with customers or supporting professional organisations, and good communications with Central London. Moves to the more distant assisted areas involve greater costs, for example, in staff travelling time if a considerable amount of contact needs to be maintained with Central London. Once outside Central London, savings from rent, rates and staff costs do not increase progressively with distance. The review therefore considered it likely that the main gain in office jobs for these areas would continue to come from indigenous 746 growth and that any increase in moves to them would be likely to consist largely of clerical jobs. That is a powerful argument for accepting the amendment.
I have quoted the unanimous view of the Greater London Council. In addition, as recently as 22nd June this year the London Boroughs Association maintained its view about ODPs and specifically pressed again for London to be exempted from any ODP control.
The House should have a brief history of what has happened in this game of squash, as I might describe it, because the ball has been hit to and fro. In Committee an amendment reducing the period was carried with the aid of a Liberal Member, who does not seem to be with us tonight. All his right hon. and hon. Friends are also absent. On Report the Government deleted the amendment, with the aid of the Liberal Party, whose spokesman then said that he did not think that his hon. Friend in Committee had understood what the problem was. With the greatest respect—if one needs to show any respect to the Liberal Party—Liberal Members understand nothing about big cities or the problems of ODPs, because none of them has the faintest relevance to city life. Perhaps, therefore, it is as well that they do not bother to attend this debate.
Their Lordships considered a different amendment, but still one with the effect of reducing the period during which control should last, and—surprise!—the Liberal Party there was split. Even its Front Bench was split. One of the noble Lords who voted for the amendment was a Liberal Front Bench spokesman. I do not think that the Lib-Lab pact worked effectively on that occasion. It is not certain that the Liberals really understood what the whole thing was about anyway.
The fact is that both Houses have taken different views. We wonder what is coming next in this Pearl White or Dick Barton saga. Alas, it looks unlikely that we shall discover what the Liberals intend to do on this occasion.
What is so sacred about 1982, the date when the Government want the power to expire? That is long after the time that this discredited Government can cling to office without facing the voters. Therefore, why are they so desperate to 747 prolong the period after they have disappeared from the scene? Perhaps a civil servant has told them—I do not apologise for repeating this suggestion, because it is a feeling that most hon. Members have—"Minister, there is a slot in the parliamentary timetable." That is because of the incompetence of the Leader of the House, who has lost his major business on devolution.
So incompetently has he managed the business that on virtually the last day of the Session nine different Bills and orders are put down for debate. Did a civil servant say "Take that slot, because if you don't it will be very difficult to obtain parliamentary time on another occasion"? That is obviously the advice that the Secretary of State has taken. He has done it in a charming way, but none the less he has taken it, and we are faced with having to waste our time prolonging the operation of the Bill way past 1980.
I hope that, on reflection, the House will accept the view of the other place that 1980 is the latest date to which control should continue under the present legislation. A Government can introduce a new Bill at any time. I still find it impossible to accept the need for continuing the control for a further five years. Certainly, the view about uncertainty in the property world and among local authorites is not shared by anyone working in those two areas with whom I have spoken. No one with whom I have discussed the matter has suggested that he would be in the least disturbed if the powers continued for two or three years instead of five. Therefore, unless the Minister can adduce evidence to the effect that it is causing great uncertainty the House must discount that as his assumption based, not on fact, but on theory.
8.45 p.m.
I hope that the House will agree that there is no reason for accepting the Government's view that we should throw out the Lords amendment. It would be nice if occasionally the Government felt able to bow to the wishes of another place—a view that was shared in the Standing Committee on which the Government had a majority. The fact that the Liberal Member voted with us when a Government Member was absent was not our fault. The Government should 748 occasionally be big enough to say "We accept the verdict". I hope that even now they will be prepared to do so on this occasion, although, looking at the Minister, I have grave doubts about it. I shall be interested to hear what he has to say, particularly about his assertion that uncertanty will be caused.
§ Mr. Guy BarnettThe lion. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Finsberg) began by saying that ODP control had few friends. He said that both parties and the Greater London Council are opposed to ODP control, which I know. He said that many members of the London Boroughs Association are opposed to it. However, a number of hon. Members, including at least one Opposition Member who spoke on Second Reading, and several of my hon. Friends who represent constituencies in the regions, welcome the continuation of the control and the Government's determination to ensure that it is effective. What we propose, and what was proposed in the original Bill which was in line with the proposal of the previous Government, is that it should continue for five years, because unless it does I do not see how it can be effective.
The hon. Member for Hampstead trailed his political coat before us on this issue, and I do not propse to respond to what he said in that connection, but in view of what he said about an official in my Department, I make it clear that both the Secretary of State and myself accept full responsibility for wanting to replace in the Bill the period which we thought necessary. We thought it necessary because we believe that development control cannot be effective unless it is for a period of five years, bearing in mind the time that it takes to plan and build an office.
The great danger, which I have explained before, is that if control is renewed for two or three years the possibility is that an office developer will say, at a time when it is difficult enough to get office development going, "Given the state of the economy, if I wait a couple of years somebody will abolish it". The reinstatement of the period of five years is an earnest of the Government's intention to operate ODP control effectively in an endeavour to achieve a fair balance of office jobs in various parts of the country.
749 The hon. Member for Hampstead said that he did not understand how uncertainty would be caused among property developers and the local authorities. I do not know which local authorities he has been speaking to. If he were to speak to some authorities in the regions, he might get a different story. I have
§ explained why uncertainty could undoubtedly arise among property interests as a consequence of our not renewing the control for a reasonable time.
§ Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 235. Noes 179.
751| Division No. 227] | AYES | [8.48 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank | Evans, loan (Aberdare) | Maclennan, Robert |
| Anderson, Donald | Evans, John (Newton) | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | McNamara, Kevin |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Faulds, Andrew | Madden, Max |
| Ashton, Joe | Flannery, Martin | Magee, Bryan |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Mahon, Simon |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Mallalieu, J. P. W. |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Ford, Ben | Marks, Kenneth |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) | Forrester, John | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) |
| Bates, Alf | Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Bean, R. E. | Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) | Mason, Rt Hon Roy |
| Beith, A. J. | Freeson, Reginald | Meacher, Michael |
| Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Freud, Clement | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Mendelson, John |
| Bishop, Rt Hon Edward | Gilbert, Dr John | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Ginsburg, David | Mikardo, Ian |
| Boardman, H. | Golding, John | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Graham, Ted | Millen, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Grant, George (Morpeth) | Mitchell, Austin Vernon (Grimsby) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Grant, John (Islington C) | Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) |
| Boyden, James (Bish Auck) | Grocott, Bruce | Molloy, William |
| Bradley, Tom | Hardy, Peter | Moonman, Eric |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Harper, Joseph | Moyle, Roland |
| Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Newens, Stanley |
| Buchan Norman | Hart, Rt Hon Judith | Noble, Mike |
| Buchanan, Richard | Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Oakes, Gordon |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Hatton, Frank | Ogden, Eric |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) | Hayman, Mrs Helene | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) | Heffer, Eric S. | Orbach, Maurice |
| Campbell, Ian | Hooley, Frank | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Canavan, Dennis | Hooson, Emlyn | Ovenden, John |
| Carmichael, Nell | Horam, John | Owen, Rt Hon Dr David |
| Carter, Ray | Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Palmer, Arthur |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Huckfield, Les | Parker, John |
| Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Clemitson, Ivor | Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Pendry, Tom |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Penhaligon, David |
| Cohen, Stanley | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Phipps, Dr Colin |
| Coleman, Donald | Hunter, Adam | Prescott, John |
| Conlan, Bernard | Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford) | Price, C. (Lewisham W) |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Jackson, Colln (Brighouse) | Richardson, Miss Jo |
| Corbett, Robin | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Cowans, Harry | Janner, Greville | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Jeger, Mrs Lena | Robinson, Geoffrey |
| Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Roderick, Caerwyn |
| Crawshaw, Richard | John, Brynmor | Rodgers, George (Chorley) |
| Cronin, John | Johnson, James (Hull West) | Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) |
| Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) | Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Rooker, J. W. |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington S) | Judd, Frank | Roper, John |
| Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) | Kaufman, Gerald | Rose, Paul B. |
| Davidson, Arthur | Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) | Lamborn, Harry | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) |
| Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) | Lamond, James | Ryman, John |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Sandelson, Neville |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Leadbitter, Ted | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Deakins, Eric | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) | Selby, Harry |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Lewis, Arthur (Newham N) | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) |
| Dempsey, James | Litterick, Tom | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Doig, Peter | Luard, Evan | Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) |
| Dormand, J. D. | Lyon, Alexander (York) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) | Small, William |
| Dunnett, Jack | Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | McCartney, Hugh | Snape, Peter |
| Eadie, Alex | McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Spearing, Nigel |
| Edge, Geoff | McElhone, Frank | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) | MacFarquhar, Roderick | Stallard, A. W. |
| Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) | McGuire, Michael (Ince) | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) |
| Stoddart, David | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) | Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington) |
| Stott, Roger | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Strang, Gavin | Ward, Michael | Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton) |
| Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) | Watkins, David | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E) | Watkinson, John | Woodall, Alec |
| Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) | Weitzman, David | Woof, Robert |
| Thorne, Stan (Preston South) | Wellbeloved, James | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Torney, Tom | White, Frank R. (Bury) | |
| Tuck, Raphael | White, James (Pollok) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Urwin, T. W. | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick | Mr. James Hamilton and |
| Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) | Mr. James Tinn. |
| Wainwright, Richard (Colne V) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) | |
| NOES | ||
| Adley, Robert | Hannam, John | Page, Richard (Workington) |
| Arnold, Tom | Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) | Parkinson, Cecil |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss | Pattie, Geoffrey |
| Awdry, Daniel | Haselhurst, Alan | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Baker, Kenneth | Hawkins, Paul | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Banks, Robert | Hayhoe, Barney | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Bell, Ronald | Hicks, Robert | Raison, Timothy |
| Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Higgins, Terence L. | Rathbone, Tim |
| Benyon, W. | Hordern, Peter | Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Hunt, David (Wirral) | Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) |
| Blaker, Peter | Hunt, John (Bromley) | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Bottomley, Peter | Hurd, Douglas | Ridley, Hon Nicholas |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Jessel, Toby | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Brittan, Leon | Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Brooke, Peter | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Brotherton, Michael | Kimball, Marcus | Ross, William (Londonderry) |
| Buck, Antony | King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Knox, David | Sainsbury, Tim |
| Carlisle, Mark | Lamont, Norman | Scott, Nicholas |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Latham, Michael (Melton) | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Churchill, W. S. | Lawrence, Ivan | Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) |
| Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) | Lawson, Nigel | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Clark, William (Croydon S) | Le Marchant, Spencer | Shepherd, Colin |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Shersby, Michael |
| Clegg, Walter | Luce, Richard | Silvester, Fred |
| Cockcroft, John | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Sims, Roger |
| Cope, John | McCrindle, Robert | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Costain, A. P. | Macfarlane, Neil | Smith, Dudley (Warwick) |
| Crouch, David | MacGregor, John | Smith, Timothy (Ashfield) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) | Speed, Keith |
| Drayson, Burnaby | McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) | Spence, John |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Spicer, Jim (W Dorset) |
| Durant, Tony | Marten, Neil | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) |
| Dykes, Hugh | Mates, Michael | Sproat, lain |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Maude, Angus | Stanley, John |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Mawby, Ray | Steen, Anthony (Wavertree) |
| Elliott, Sir William | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) |
| Emery, Peter | Mayhew, Patrick | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Tapsell, Peter |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey | Mills, Peter | Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) |
| Fisher, Sir Nigel | Miscampbell, Norman | Tebbit, Norman |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Moate, Roger | Townsend, Cyril D. |
| Forman, Nigel | Monro, Hector | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Galbraith, Hon T. G. D. | Moore, John (Croydon C) | Vaughan, Dr Gerald |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Morgan, Geraint | Viggers, Peter |
| Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral | Wakeham, John |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | Morris, Michael (Northampton S) | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Godber, Rt Hon Joseph | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Wall, Patrick |
| Goodhart, Philip | Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) | Walters, Dennis |
| Goodhew, Victor | Mudd, David | Warren, Kenneth |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Neave, Airey | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Nelson, Anthony | Wells, John |
| Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Neubert, Michael | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Newton, Tony | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Gray, Hamish | Onslow, Cranley | Younger, Hon George |
| Grist, Ian | Oppenheim, Mrs Sally | |
| Grylls, Michael | Osborn, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Page, John (Harrow West) | Mr. Carol Mather and |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) | Mr. Jim Lester. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Committee appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendment to the Bill: Mr. Guy Barnett, Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg, Mr. Rossi, Mr. Freeson, and 752 Mr. Tinn; Three to be the quorum.—[Mr. Guy Barnett.]
§ To withdraw immediately.
§ Reasons for disagreeing to the Lords amendment reported, and agreed to; to be communicated to the Lords.