§ 4.8 p.m.
§ Mr. Ian Gow (Eastbourne)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Transport Act 1968.[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member has a right to be heard in reasonable silence.
§ Mr. GowUnder Section 127 of the Road Traffic Act I960, it is unlawful to operate a bus except under licence issued by the Traffic Commissioners. Section 134 provides a penalty, either a fine or imprisonment, for any person who operates a bus without a licence. Section 135 lays down the criteria to which the Traffic Commissioners shall have regard in deciding whether to grant or refuse any such licence. Section 30 of the Transport Act 1968 relaxed marginally the provisions of Section 135 of the 1960 Act.
The Bill which I seek leave to introduce would relax very much further the criteria which have to be applied by the Traffic Commissioners so that, provided the Commissioners are satisfied that the crucial safety provisions of the 1960 Act are being complied with, they must grant a licence. Under the law as it stands, following the practice of the Commissioners and upheld by the Minister on appeal, in effect, wherever and whenever the National Bus Company, any of its subsidiaries or British Rail objects to a licence being granted to a private bus operator, the application is refused.
There are three objections to the present licensing system. First, the criteria for issuing licences are all wrong. Why should the Traffic Commissioners be charged, as they now are, with deciding the suitability of the routes on which a new service is to be provided? Why should they decide the extent to which the routes concerned are adequately served already? Why should they—and, on appeal, the Minister—decide whether the proposed new service is, to use the words of the Act,
… necessary or desirable in the public interest"?Is not the public interest best served by allowing the market, rather than officials appointed by the Department of 1110 the Environment, to decide where the public interest lies?The experience of the 15 years since the Act was passed has shown that Traffic Commissioners and Ministers do not know best, that the public whom they are supposed to serve are fed up with both the cost and the quality of public transport and that the bureaucracy which it was thought would protect the citizen has become the citizen's scourge.
Second, the 1960 criteria, however well-intentioned, have served only to preserve the costly, loss-making State monopolies of British Rail and the National Bus Company. I am anxious, as the House knows, to assist the Government wherever I can. In paragraph 1.5 of their document "Criteria for Assistance to Industry", published only last December, we find these immortal words:
It is for the State to establish the broad social and economic framework within which industry operates by measures … to check monopolistic tendencies.I emphasise those last words. This is an anti-monopoly Bill, an anti-State monopoly Bill. It seeks to help the Government along their own declared path.Third, the present criteria are manifestly divorced from the needs and requirements of the people. The people want this outdated, discredited and bureaucratic system of licensing to be scrapped. I give two examples. Gastonia Coaches Limited has applied to the Traffic Commissioners for a licence to operate a service for commuters from Cranleigh and Ewhurst in Surrey to London. The company estimates that a commuter bus service could save passengers up to £6 a week in comparison with the rail fares which will operate from the 20th of this month. However, as the criteria stand, it is most unlikely that a licence will be granted because the service would take traffic from British Rail.
I should like to quote from a letter from a commuter to the managing director of this company on 23rd February:
Concerning your plan to run a service from Ewhurst to Waterloo, may I say that you have my unreserved support? For too long, the public have been treated as a captive and docile market by the nationalised industries and the time has come for a stand to be made. I am certain that your plan, if it is allowed, would be greeted with enthusiasm by the commuting public countrywide.1111 The Bill will help not only the commuting public but parents who would like to operate a free enterprise system to get their children to school more cheaply. It will help the elderly and the retired who would like to go on coach outings but whose choice is restricted by the licensing system.A company in my constituency—Waterhouse Coaches Limited of Polegate—applied in October 1974 for permission to run Holiday Coach Tours which were especially designed for old-age pensioners. In March 1975, after two public sittings, the Traffic Commissioners refused to grant the licence, which was opposed by the Maidstone & District Motor Services Limited and by Southdown Motor Services, both subsidiaries of the NBC. An appeal was lodged by the company on 7th May 1975 and was heard by an inspector from the Department of the Environment at the Town Hall, Eastbourne, on 8th December 1975. The inspector's report was received by the Secretary of State only on 13th February and it will be many weeks before a decision is made, even though the application was originally lodged 17 months ago.
Of course, the monopolies fear and detest competition. They hate the disciplines of the market economy. For them, the preservation of the status quo is more important than service to the public. In 1951 the Tory Party gained power on the basis of Winston Churchill's promise to set the people free. This Bill is inspired by the same motive, because the Tory Party is still committed to that principle.
§ 4.17 p.m.
§ Mr. Bob Cryer (Keighley)I should like to oppose this attempt to introduce pernicious legislation.
The hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) suggested that the criteria applied by the Traffic Commissioners should be relaxed. The implication of his speech was that in certain circum stances the Commissioners would be forced to grant a licence without being allowed to impose any criteria——
§ Mrs. Elaine Kellett-Bowman (Lancaster)Except safety.
§ Mrs. Kellett-BowmanWill the hon. Member give way? He is quite inaccurate.
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Oscar Murton)Order. Mr. Cryer.
§ Mrs. Kellett-BowmanWill the hon. Gentleman give way?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman must be allowed to continue his speech.
§ Mr. CryerI am grateful to you, Sir, for preventing those interruptions.
The three objectives which the Traffic Commissioners have a duty to apply seem entirely satisfactory. They decide on the routes and their suitability and whether a route is necessary or desirable in the public interest. That has been so since the 1931 Road Traffic Act, when unfettered competition reigned in the way the hon. Member for Eastbourne described. It became clear to the Government of the day that competition was not beneficial to the public, that many routes were being eroded because they were not profitable and that the market forces were concentrating only on the profitable routes.
If the Bill is given a First Reading, that sort of situation will prevail again. Profitable routes will be applied for, but the National Bus Company also provides services on existing routes which are not profitable. If the profitable routes were eroded through the operation of the legislative proposals to which we have been listening today, this would mean that even greater losses would be sustained by the State-owned National Bus Company. The high standards which have been established by its services ought to be, and in our view must be, maintained.
The aim should be not to reduce the 1968 Transport Act but to extend it and certainly to implement those sections which would lead to an integrated transport system. The hon. Member for Eastbourne mentioned, for example, the duplication of rail and bus services. We want to see those services integrated. We do not want to see any kind of competitive tendency which would erode 1113 services which are lacking in profitability or concentration on profitable services to the detriment of both the National Bus Company's services and the rail services. Any hon. Member who has the interest of a public vehicle service at heart or who has an interest in maintaining the existing 11,000 miles of rail network must in all conscience vote
§ against this pernicious piece of legislation which has been proposed today.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13(Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 138, Noes 150.
1115| Division No. 75.] | AYES | [4.22 p.m. |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Hastings, Stephen | Onslow, Cranley |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Hayhoe, Barney | Osborn, John |
| Banks, Robert | Hicks, Robert | Pardoe, John |
| Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Higgins, Terence L. | Parkinson, Cecil |
| Benyon, W. | Holland, Philip | Penhaligon, David |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Peyton, Rt Hon John |
| Biffen, John | Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) | Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Body, Richard | Hunt, John | Rathbone, Tim |
| Bottomley, Peter | James, David | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd) | Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) |
| Bradford, Rev Robert | Jessel, Toby | Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Ridley, Hon Nicholas |
| Buck, Antony | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Budgen, Nick | Kershaw, Anthony | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Kimball, Marcus | Ross, William (Londonderry) |
| Burden, F. A. | King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Sainsbury, Tim |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Lamont, Norman | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Churchill, W. S. | Lane, David | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Shepherd, Colin |
| Cope, John | Latham, Michael (Melton) | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Corrie, John | Lawrence, lvan | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Costain, A. P. | Le Marchant, Spencer | Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) |
| Crouch, David | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) |
| Dean, Paul (N Somerset) | Lloyd, Ian | Sproat, Iain |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Luce, Richard | Stanley, John |
| Dunlop, John | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Durant, Tony | McCusker, H. | Tapsell, Peter |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Macfarlane, Neil | Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) |
| Eyre, Reginald | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) | Tebbit, Norman |
| Fairbairn, Nicholas | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Farr, John | Marten, Neil | Townsend, Cyril D |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey | Mather, Carol | Trotter, Neville |
| Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) | Maude, Angus | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Mawby, Ray | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Wainwright, Richard (Colne V) |
| Freud, Clement | Molyneaux, James | Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester) |
| Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) | Monro, Hector | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek |
| Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Montgomery, Fergus | Walters, Dennis |
| Goodhart, Philip | More, Jasper (Ludlow) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Morris, Michael (Northampton S) | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Gray, Hamish | Mudd, David | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Grylls, Michael | Neave, Airey | Wood, Rt Hon Richard |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Nelson, Anthony | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Hannam, John | Neubert, Michael | Mr Ian Gow and |
| Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss | Normanton, Tom | Mr. Nigel Lawson. |
| NOES | ||
| Ashton, Joe | Cohen, Stanley | Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Coleman, Donald | English, Michael |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Colquhoun, Ms Maureen | Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Conlan, Bernard | Evans, loan (Aberdare) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Evans, John (Newton) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Corbett, Robin | Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. |
| Boardman, H. | Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Flannery, Martin |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill) | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) |
| Bradley, Tom | Crawshaw, Richard | Foot, Rt Hon Michael |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiten) | Forrester, John |
| Brown, Ronald (Hackney S) | Dalyell, Tam | Fry, Peter |
| Buchan, Norman | Davidson, Arthur | Garrett, John (Norwich S) |
| Campbell, Ian | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Gilbert, Dr John |
| Canavan, Dennis | Dell, Rt Hon Edmund | Ginsburg, David |
| Cant, R. B | Dempsey, James | Gould, Bryan |
| Carmichael, Neil | Dormand, J. D. | Grocott, Bruce |
| Carter-Jones Lewis | Dunn, James A. | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) |
| Cartwright John | Dunnett, Jack | Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol S) | Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) | Hardy, Peter |
| Harper, Joseph | Magee, Bryan | Spearing, Nigel |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Marks, Kenneth | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Hatton, Frank | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Stallard, A. W. |
| Hayman, Mrs Helene | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Stoddart, David |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Maynard, Miss Joan | Stott, Roger |
| Hooley, Frank | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Strang, Gavin |
| Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N) | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshawe) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E) |
| Hunter, Adam | Newens, Stanley | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford) | Park, George | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Parry, Robert | Tierney, Sydney |
| Janner, Greville | Pavitt, Laurie | Tinn, James |
| Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Phipps, Dr Colin | Tomlinson, John |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Radice, Giles | Torney, Tom |
| Kaufman, Gerald | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Tuck, Raphael |
| Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) | Urwin, T. W. |
| Lambie, David | Robertson, John (Paisley) | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Lamborn, Harry | Roderick, Caerwyn | Watkins, David |
| Lamond, James | Rodgers, George (Chorley) | White, James (Pollok) |
| Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Rooker, J. W. | Whitlock, William |
| Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton and Slough) | Rose, Paul B. | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Rowlands, Ted | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| Lipton, Marcus | Sedgemore, Brian | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Loyden, Eddie | Selby, Harry | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Luard, Evan | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) | Woof, Robert |
| Mabon, Dr J. Dickson | Short, Mrs Renee (Wolv NE) | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| McCartney, Hugh | Sillars, James | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| McElhone, Frank | Silverman, Julius | |
| MacFarquhar, Roderick | Skinner, Dennis | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| McGuire, Michael (Ince) | Small, William | Mr. Bob Cryer and |
| Mackintosh, John P. | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) | Mr. Russell Kerr. |
| Madden, Max |
§ Question accordingly negatived.