§ 3.55 p.m.
§ Sir John Langford-Holt (Shrewsbury)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Shops Acts 1950 to 1965.I think that most of us in this House have the feeling from time to time that perhaps we are churning out too much legislation. Therefore, at the outset I should like to say that the purpose of my Bill is to limit the operation of legislation and not to extend it.A law in this country has to fulfil two requirements. First, there must be a demand for it. I have received on this matter a greater amount of correspondence and petitions, for which I have not asked, than on any other subject since I have been a Member of the House. Second, the law must be understandable and logical.
Let us see how the Shops Acts stand up to those requirements. I emphasise that I am talking only about the closing hours of shops on weekdays and not about trading on Sundays. Are the Shops Acts needed? Of course they are. We all agree on that. There are immense areas of legislation covering the treatment of employees and the quality and standard of service. There is no argument about that. As to whether the provisions of the Shops Acts relating to closing hours are intelligible and understandable, the answer must be "No". I guess that there is not one Member of the House who fully understands the law relating to the Shops Acts. I freely admit that until I started inquiries into the intricacies of my proposals I did not understand them.
The basic law is that shops should shut at 8 p.m. on weekdays and at 9 p.m. on one day a week, and that there should be an early closing day at 1 o'clock on one day a week. There are, however, exceptions. One has to look at the Sunday regulations to see how many anomalies and stupidities there are. To deal with the ordinary anomalies first, strangely enough the Shops Acts deal with the closing but not with the opening of shops. A shop is forced to close at 9 p.m. but, presumably, may open at one minute past midnight and trade all night without breaking the law.
454 There are strange requirements about food. One may go into a shop and eat a sausage roll if it is hot, but if it is cold and one takes it out of the shop the law has been broken. One may eat cooked meats in a shop at any time of the evening, but one may not eat half-cooked meat unless it happens to be partly-cooked tripe. One may buy tobacco, sweets and ice-cream provided that it is from a shop within the precincts of a theatre and provided that it is sold to a theatre audience. But if anybody comes off the street into the shop to buy, it is my belief that such a person is acting in contravention of the law.
Newspapers may be bought from approved stations. I wonder whether Sir Richard Marsh could tell us what is not an approved station. Petrol may be sold for the benefit of cars, cycles and aircraft, as long as the petrol station opens for that purpose and closes as soon as the car, cycle or aeroplane has been served.
I believe I am right in saying that a shop may stay open to victual a ship on a Sunday. Probably the greatest nonsense of all is the fact that on a Sunday it is legal to sell a Wimpy and it is in order to sell Chinese food, but it is illegal to sell fish and chips. Therefore, the law is in a muddle, lacks clarity and should not be applied in any place where it is not absolutely necessary.
Shops are open and will remain open tonight all over London. They will be breaking the law, not because they are open but because they happen to be selling, perhaps, baked beans with a loaf of bread. It is all right to sell a loaf of bread, but when a tin of baked beans is sold with it the shop steps outside the law.
My Bill proposes to exclude from the early closing provisions on weekdays shops which are—I emphasise these words—entirely and exclusively operated by the owners. The problem arises: who are the owners? I believe that an owner is someone who owns 25 per cent. or more of the business. That percentage could be 33 per cent., 50 per cent. or 100 per cent. It depends on the definition of "small shop". The moment a shop employs someone, it will automatically fall outside the provisions of the Bill.
The hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Torney), who, I believe, will oppose 455 the Bill—I make no complaint about that—sent round a "whip", which was given to me by one of his hon. Friends, in which he makes two statements, with which I must quarrel. First, he said that my proposals would exclude from the Shops Acts all shops operated by the owner or his family. The Bill does not exclude all shops from the Shops Acts or even small shops from those Acts; it excludes them from only one part of the Shops Acts, namely, Part I—not even Part IV.
Secondly, the hon. Gentleman said that the Bill is a threat to all shop workers. The greater threat to the employment of shop workers is the fact that Tesco and, dare I say, the Co-op have turned their grocery departments into self-service departments. That is a greater threat than any which could arise from the small corner shop. If I believed that the Bill posed a threat to the welfare of shop workers, I should not ask the House to accept the motion.
§ 4.3 p.m.
Mr. Thomas Torrey (Bradford, South)The hon. Member for Shrewsbury (Sir J. Langford-Holt) has outlined the main objections to the Bill and some of the anomalies in the existing Shops Acts. For many years I worked in a shop and then for a considerable time I was a full-time officer of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers. I am well aware of the anomalies, and it is possible that, if the House could find the time, the Shops Acts need to be amended. However, the hon. Gentleman wants to amend them to allow one section of shop employers or owners to operate differently from the rest. As the hon. Gentleman said, the owner-occupier need only employ his family, and this would add still greater confusion to the already confusing Shops Acts.
At present, Shops Acts inspectors have the unenviable task of trying to enforce the law. Although I have not consulted my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, I am sure he would agree that to expect an inspector to know whether Aunt Mary was really Aunt Mary or an employee would tax the inspector even more.
§ Why do USDAW and I say that the Bill will be a threat to shop workers simply because for a great number of years they have been the Cinderella of industry? Shop workers work long, unsocial hours. Is it feasible to expect large firms in the High Street—and today retailing is a highly complex and competitive business, as all hon. Members recognise—which have large sums of money invested in their large retail organisations to stand aside while owner-occupied businesses, which employ members of the family, are allowed to open whenever they like?
§ There is only so much cake. However much we subdivide that cake, we shall cause economic stress. If a shop opens for 12 hours instead of eight hours shop workers will have to work a shift system, which I doubt would operate effectively, and there would be more to pay. Who pays in the end? The more hours a shop stays open, the more expenses there are. Those costs are added to the cost of the article.
§ The hon. Member for Shrewsbury mentioned the hours during which shops are already allowed to open. He said that they could open until 8 o'clock every night and 9 o'clock on a late night. Is not that reasonable? Are we not pandering to the unreasonable if we suggest that someone may wish to buy a pound a sugar or a packet of cigarettes at 8.5 p.m. or 9.5 p.m.? At present, shop opening hours are quite reasonable. Moreover, the mass of shops do not stay open even as long as the hours permitted under the Acts. Many shops shut at 5.30 p.m. and 6 p.m. If they wish to stay open later, the Acts cover them.
§ I sincerely hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends will follow me into the Lobby and vote against the Bill, because it is a thoroughly bad Bill economically and for shop workers.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 151, Noes 159.
459| Division No. 61.] | AYES | [4.09 p.m. |
| Baker, Kenneth | Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) | Biggs-Davison, John |
| Banks, Robert | Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Blaker, Peter |
| Bell, Ronald | Berry, Hon Anthony | Bottomley, Peter |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Hannam, John | Penhaligon, David |
| Bradford, Rev Robert | Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) | Percival, Ian |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Hawkins, Paul | Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Hayhoe, Barney | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Brotherton, Michael | Higgins, Terence L. | Prior, Rt Hon James |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Holland, Philip | Raison, Timothy |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Hooson, Emlyn | Rathbone, Tim |
| Buck, Antony | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) |
| Burden, F. A. | Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | James, David | Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey |
| Carson, John | Jopling, Michael | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Clark, William (Croydon S) | Kershaw, Anthony | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Kilfedder, James | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Cockcroft, John | King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | Kitson, Sir Timothy | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) |
| Cordle, John H. | Knight, Mrs Jill | Sainsbury, Tim |
| Corrie, John | Knox, David | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Costain, A. P. | Lamont, Norman | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Crawford, Douglas | Le Marchant, Spencer | Shepherd, Colin |
| Critchley, Julian | Lester, Jim (Beeston) | Sims, Roger |
| Crouch, David | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Dean, Paul (N Somerset) | Lloyd, Ian | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Doig, Peter | Luce, Richard | Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Sproat, Iain |
| Durant, Tony | McCusker, H. | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Macfarlane, Neil | Steen, Anthony (Wavertree) |
| Elliott, Sir William | Mather, Carol | Stokes, John |
| Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Fairbairn, Nicholas | Mawby, Ray | Tapsell, Peter |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Thompson, George |
| Fell, Anthony | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Wainwright, Richard (Colne V) |
| Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Welder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Freud, Clement | Molyneaux, James | Wall, Patrick |
| Fry, Peter | Monro, Hector | Walters, Dennis |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Montgomery, Fergus | Warren, Kenneth |
| Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) | More, Jasper (Ludlow) | Watt, Hamish |
| Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) | Wells, John |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | Mudd, David | Welsh, Andrew |
| Goodhart, Philip | Neave, Airey | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Goodhew, Victor | Nelson, Anthony | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Neubert, Michael | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Gray, Hamish | Newton, Tony | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| Griffiths, Eldon | Onslow, Cranley | Younger, Hon George |
| Grimond, Rt Hon J. | Oppenheim, Mrs Sally | |
| Grylls, Michael | Page, John (Harrow W) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Pardoe, John | Sir John Langford-Holt and |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Parkinson, Cecil | Mr. Robert Corbett. |
| NOES | ||
| Archer, Peter | Dunn, James A. | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Ashton, Joe | Edge, Geoff | Hughes, Roy (Newport) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) | Hunter, Adam |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) | Jackson, Colin (Brighouse) |
| Bates, Alf | English, Michael | Janner, Greville |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Jeger, Mrs Lena |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Evans, loan (Aberdare) | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) |
| Boardman, H. | Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | Johnson, James (Hull West) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Jones, Barry (East Flint) |
| Brown, Ronald (Hackney S) | Fitt, Gerard (Belfast W) | Jones, Dan (Burnley) |
| Buchan, Norman | Flannery, Martin | Judd, Frank |
| Buchanan, Richard | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Kaufman, Gerald |
| Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) | Ford, Ben | Kelley, Richard |
| Canavan, Dennis | Forrester, John | Kerr, Russell |
| Cant, R. B. | Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Kinnock, Neil |
| Cartwright, John | Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) | Lamborn, Harry |
| Ciemitson, Ivor | George, Bruce | Lamond, James |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol S) | Ginsburg, David | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Cohen, Stanley | Golding, John | Lewis, Arthur (Newham N) |
| Coleman, Donald | Gould, Bryan | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Graham, Ted | Litterick, Tom |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Loyden, Eddie |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Hardy, Peter | Luard, Evan |
| Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill) | Harper, Joseph | Mabon, Dr J. Dickson |
| Cryer, Bob | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | McCartney, Hugh |
| Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) | Hart. Rt Hon Judith | McElhone, Frank |
| Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) | Hayman, Mrs Helene | McGuire, Michael (Ince) |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Heffer, Eric S. | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) |
| Delargy, Hugh | Hooley, Frank | McNamara, Kevin |
| Dempsey, James | Horam, John | Madden, Max |
| Dormand, J. D. | Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Mahon, Simon |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Huckfield, Les | Mallalieu, J. P. W. |
| Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Price, William (Rugby) | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Roderick, Caerwyn | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Maynard, Miss Joan | Rodgers, George (Chorley) | Walden Brian (B'ham. L'dyw'd) |
| Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Rooker, J. W. | Walker. Terry (Kingswood) |
| Mikardo, Ian | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) | Ward, Michael |
| Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) | Watkinson, John |
| Moonman, Eric | Skinner, Dennis | Weetch, Ken |
| Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Small, William | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Morris, Charles R. (Openshawe) | Snape, Peter | Whitlock, William |
| Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick | Spearing, Nigel | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Newens, Stanley | Spriggs, Leslie | Williams, Alan (Swansea W) |
| Noble, Mike | Stewart, Donald (Western Isles) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| O'Malley, Rt Hon Brian | Stoddart, David | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Orbach, Maurice | Stonehouse, Rt Hon John | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Owen, Dr David | Stott, Roger | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Padley, Walter | Swain, Thomas | Woodall, Alec |
| Palmer, Arthur | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Park, George | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) | |
| Pavitt, Laurie | Tomlinson, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Pendry, Tom | Tuck, Raphael | Mr. Sydney Tierney and |
| Perry, Ernest | Urwin, T. W. | Mr. Thomas Torney. |
| Price, C. (Lewisham W) |
§ Question accordingly negatived.