§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £11,704,621,000, be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund, on account, for or towards defraying the charges for Civil Services for the year ending on 31st March 1977, as set out in House of Commons Paper No. 30.—[Mr. Robert Sheldon.]
§ 4.12 p.m.
§ Mr. John Pardoe (Cornwall, North)I do not wish to delay the House for more than a few minutes because I appreciate that it wishes to debate a matter which will involve additional public expenditure expenditure has been so wildly out of control as it has been over the past two of perhaps £162 million. To put the matter in perspective, I wish to spend about four minutes in questioning a matter of some importance which will cost the public purse no less than £17 billion. The figure of £17,000 million is what we are being asked to agree on the nod this afternoon without any debate or Division. It seems that this is a matter of importance which we are at least entitled to question.
I recognise immediately that the representatives of the two-party Establishment in this House may say that there is nothing new about that, that each has done it before. That is no excuse. It merely serves to point out the lamentable failure of this House to exercise proper control over the details of public expenditure in the past under successive Governments of different political persuasions.
In any case, we are in a new situation. There has never been a time when public 1181 or three years. There never has been a time when we have not been able to debate this matter in some detail before voting for these substantial sums of money. Past procedures have not worked and they cannot therefore be called in aid of today's procedure, even if events had not magnified the importance of what we are doing. The first two Votes on Account—one of which we have agreed to, the second of which we are now discussing—together account for £14 billion.
What is a Vote on Account? What we are in principle being asked to do is to vote money for the early months of the forthcoming financial year starting next April—not the current financial year—to enable the Government to plan ahead in the knowledge that money will be made available for the conduct of public business. It is an advance payment on the full Estimates. Precedent decrees that we vote for an Estimate which is based on a percentage of this year's expenditure. But this year's expenditure is already wildly out of control. So why should we accept the mere statistical sleight of hand which we have accepted in the past?
This year's expenditure has not been debated in this House so there is no such control over expenditure. There has been no debate whatever on the public expenditure White Paper published on 30th January 1975. There has been no debate on the principles of public expenditure in this year since January 1974.
§ Mr. PardoeThe last White Paper on public expenditure published earlier this year may have been made irrelevant as a result of inflation and other matters even before the date of publication. That is no reason for saying that no debate at all should take place on the elements of public expenditure. The Supplementary Estimates amount to £3 billion. I do not make any point about that. It is a large sum of money. Perhaps we ought to have done this using the Supply Day procedure which was devised to give the House a method of exercising its control over the expenditure of the Executive. It is not being used for that purpose.
I wish to register my protest this afternoon, along with my colleagues, at the failure of this House to do its job in controlling the spending powers of the Executive. I understand that to do that I have to move a reduction in this sum of money by a nominal amount. If that is so I will propose that the amount be reduced by £1,000.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member can vote against the motion if he wishes.
§ Mr. PardoeIn that case, I give notice that I intend to vote against the motion.
§ Question put:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 234, Noes 59.
1183| Division No. 16.] | AYES | [4.17 p.m. |
| Archer, Peter | Cant, R. B. | Doig, Peter |
| Ashley, Jack | Carter, Ray | Dormand, J. D. |
| Ashton, Joe | Cartwright, John | Douglas-Mann, Bruce |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Duffy, A. E. P. |
| Atkinson, Norman | Clemitson, Ivor | Dunn, James A. |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Cocks, Michael (Bristol S) | Dunnett, Jack |
| Bates, Alf | Cohen, Stanley | Eadie, Alex |
| Bean, R. E. | Coleman, Donald | Edge, Geoff |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Colquhoun, Mrs Maureen | Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Conlan, Bernard | Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) |
| Bishop, E. S. | Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | English, Michael |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Corbett, Robin | Ennals, David |
| Boardman, H. | Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) |
| Booth, Albert | Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill) | Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Crawshaw, Richard | Ewing, Harry (Stirling) |
| Boyden, James (Bish Auck) | Cryer, Bob | Faulds, Andrew |
| Bradley, Tom | Cunningham, G. (Islington S) | Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Davidson, Arthur | Flannery, Martin |
| Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) | Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) |
| Buchan, Norman | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Foot, Rt Hon Michael |
| Buchanan, Richard | Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Ford, Ben |
| Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Forrester, John |
| Campbell, Ian | Delargy, Hugh | Garrett, John (Norwich S) |
| Canavan, Dennis | Dempsey, James | Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) |
| George, Bruce | McGuire, Michael (Ince) | Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) |
| Ginsburg, David | Mackenzie, Gregor | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Golding, John | Mackintosh, John P. | Sillars, James |
| Gould, Bryan | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Silverman, Julius |
| Gourlay, Harry | McNamara, Kevin | Skinner, Dennis |
| Graham, Ted | Madden, Max | Small, William |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Magee, Bryan | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Grocott, Bruce | Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Snaps, Peter |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Marquand, David | Spearing, Nigel |
| Hardy, Peter | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Harper, Joseph | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Stallard, A. W. |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Stonehouse, Rt Hon John |
| Hart, Rt Hon Judith | Maynard, Miss Joan | Stott, Roger |
| Hatton, Frank | Meacher, Michael | Strang, Gavin |
| Hayman, Mrs Helene | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Strauss, Rt Hon G. R. |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Mendelson, John | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Hooley, Frank | Millan, Bruce | Swain, Thomas |
| Horam, John | Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Molloy, William | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Huckfield, Les | Moonman, Eric | Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E) |
| Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Newens, Stanley | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Noble, Mike | Tierney, Sydney |
| Hunter, Adam | O'Halloran, Michael | Tinn, James |
| Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford) | O'Malley, Rt Hon Brian | Tomlinson, John |
| Janner, Greville | Orbach, Maurice | Tomney, Frank |
| Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Tuck, Raphael |
| Jeger, Mrs Lena | Ovenden, John | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Palmer, Arthur | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Stechford) | Park, George | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Johnson, James (Hull West) | Parker, John | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Parry, Robert | Ward, Michael |
| Jones, Alec (Rhondda) | Pavitt, Laurie | Watkins, David |
| Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Pendry, Tom | Weetch, Ken |
| Kaufman, Gerald | Perry, Ernest | Wellbeloved, James |
| Kelley, Richard | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Kerr, Russell | Price, C. (Lewisham W) | White, James (Pollok) |
| Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Price, William (Rugby) | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Kinnock, Neil | Radice, Giles | Whitlock, William |
| Lambie, David | Richardson, Miss Jo | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Lamborn, Harry | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Williams, Alan (Swansea W) |
| Lamond, James | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Robertson, John (Paisley) | Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford) |
| Lee, John | Roderick, Caerwyn | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) | Rodgers, George (Chorley) | Wilson, Rt Hon H. (Huyton) |
| Lever, Rt Hon Harold | Rooker, J. W. | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Lewis, Arthur (Newham N) | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Sandelson, Neville | Woodall, Alec |
| Lipton, Marcus | Sedgemore, Brian | Woof, Robert |
| Litterick, Tom | Selby, Harry | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Luard, Evan | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) | |
| Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| McCartney, Hugh | Shore, Rt Hon Peter | Miss Margaret Jackson and |
| McElhone, Frank | Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C) | Mr David Stoddart. |
| MacFarquhar, Roderick | ||
| NOES | ||
| Biffen, John | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Ridley, Hon Nicholas |
| Body, Richard | Jones, Arthur (Daventry) | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Bottomley, Peter | Kershaw, Anthony | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Kilfedder, James | Smith, Dudley (Warwick) |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Knight, Mrs Jill | Spence, John |
| Brotherton, Michael | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Stewart, Donald (Western Isles) |
| Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) | Latham, Michael (Melton) | Tebbit, Norman |
| Cormack, Patrick | Lawrence, Ivan | Thompson, George |
| Crawford, Douglas | Lawson, Nigel | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| Critchley, Julian | Macfarlane, Neil | Wainwright, Richard (Colne V) |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | MacGregor, John | Warren, Kenneth |
| Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Watt, Hamish |
| Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) | Mayhew, Patrick | Welsh, Andrew |
| Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Grimond, Rt Hon J. | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Grylls, Michael | Miscampbell, Norman | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Hastings, Stephen | Mitchell, David (Easingstoke) | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| Hawkins, Paul | Mudd, David | |
| Hicks, Robert | Pardoe, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) | Penhaligon, David | Mr. A. J. Beith and |
| Jessel, Toby | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Mr. Cyril Smith. |
| Question accordingly agreed to. |
§
Resolved,
That a sum, not exceeding £11,704,621,000, be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund, on account, for or towards defraying the charges for Civil Services for the year ending on 31st March 1977, as set out in House of Commons Paper No. 30.