§ The ChairmanThe next Amendment is No. 737, in page 46, line 6, leave out subsection (2), standing in the name of the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) and the names of other hon. Members.
§ Mr. HefferI will be very brief, Sir Robert. I will merely say—under protest, not moved.
§ Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
659§ Mr. John Page (Harrow, West)I shall also make a very short speech on the question of the appointment of the registrar. We listened with great interest earlier to the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle), who said that she accepted the view of registration and the idea that there should be some supervision of trade union rules in relation to accountancy, ballots, membership, election of officers and so on. It seems that the only parts of the Bill objected to would be Clause 61(7) and paragraphs 6 and 10 of Schedule 3. It seems, therefore, that it would be appropriate that the Registrar and his assistants should have legal training of some sort.
Can my hon. and learned Friend explain whether the whole of the responsibilities of the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies as they apply to trade unions will be transferred to the new Registrar of Trade Unions and Employers' Associations? I do not believe that this is made clear in the Bill. This move would be in connection with the investments of trade unions and employers associations and the handling of questions in connection with political funds and their rules. These are the main categories on which we would like elucidation.
§ Mr. AtkinsonMay I recall our earlier discussions and ask the Solicitor-General to give a reply about the existence of friendly societies? Can he tell us whether an unregistered union can continue to register under the Friendly Societies Act in the way in which it has done over the years? Is an unregistered union prevented from doing so, even though a sectional exclusion is mentioned in the Bill?
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI will deal first with the point raised by the hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson), because he raised it in an earlier discussion. The position is that a trade union—indeed an organisation of workers registered or unregistered—is not under this Bill entitled to register under the Friendly Societies Act. This is as a result of Clause 140(1)(b).
I point out to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. John Page) that the Bill transfers to the new Registrar of Trade Unions the functions of the present Registrar of Friendly Societies in relation to the Registrar
§ of trade unions the functions of the present Registrar of friendly Societies in relation to the registration of trade unions and in relation to trade unions. That is provided for by Schedule 7. It does not transfer what I might call the friendly society functions; although this does not prevent the possibility of the same person holding the registrarship of both friendly societies and trade unions. This is hiving-off the trade unions from the Registrar of Friendly Societies' work but not the other aspects. I hope that sufficiently explains the position.
§ 10.15 p.m.
§ Mr. AtkinsonMay we assume from what the Solicitor-General says that he is conscious of the amount of money involved for the average non-registered trade union, which would have to find an enormous sum of money?
§ The Solicitor-GeneralYes, I noted that point the hon. Gentleman made of that. The size of the funds will vary not only according to the size of the union, but according to a whole range of factors affecting its history, and the larger funds are associated with some of the older unions, as the hon. Gentleman said.
§ Mr. AtkinsonIt could be £¾ million.
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI noted the figures which the hon. Gentleman gave. It is clear that an organisation which was unregistered could not qualify as a friendly society, but, once registered, it could immediately recover, or continue, all the benefits currently available under the Incomes and Corporation Taxes Act, 1970, in respect of provident society funds, which is what it now enjoys. Under the 1871 Act, registration enables a trade union to enjoy the benefits of a friendly society in respect of provident funds, while registration under the Bill would carry the same consequences, but it would not be admissible for an unregistered organisation.
§ Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 302, Noes 253.
665| Division No. 145.] | AYES | [10.16 p.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Astor, John | Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Atkins, Humphrey | Balniel, Lord |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Awdry, Daniel | Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony |
| Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) | Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) | Batsford, Brian |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Maude, Angus |
| Bell, Ronald | Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) | Glyn, Dr. Alan | Mawby, Ray |
| Benyon, W. | Goodhart, Philip | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Goodhew, Victor | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Biffen, John | Gorst, John | Mills, Peter (Torrington) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Gower, Raymond | Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) |
| Blaker, Peter | Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) | Miscampbell, Norman |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Gray, Hamish | Mitchell,Lt,-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W) |
| Body, Richard | Green, Alan | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) |
| Boscawen, Robert | Grieve, Percy | Moate, Roger |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Grylls, Michael | Molyneaux, James |
| Bowden, Andrew | Gummer, Selwyn | Money, Ernie |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Gurden, Harold | Monks, Mrs. Connie |
| Braine, Bernard | Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) | Monro, Hector |
| Bray, Ronald | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Montgomery, Fergus |
| Brinton, Sir Talton | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Hannam, John (Exeter) | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Harrison, Brian (Maldon) | Mudd, David |
| Bryan, Paul | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Murton, Oscar |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M) | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Nabarro, Sir Gerald |
| Buck, Antony | Haselhurst, Alan | Heave, Airey |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Hastings, Stephen | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael |
| Burden, F. A. | Havers, Michael | Normanton, Tom |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Hay, John | Nott, John |
| Campbell, Rt.Hn.C.(Moray & Nairn) | Hayhoe, Barney | Onslow, Cranley |
| Carlisle, Mark | Heseltine, Michael | Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Hicks, Robert | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. |
| Cary, Sir Robert | Higgins, Terence L. | Osborn, John |
| Channor, Paul | Hiley, Joseph | Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) |
| Chapman, Sydney | Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) | Page, Graham (Crosby) |
| Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher | Hill, James (Southampton, Test) | Page, John (Harrow, W.) |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Holland, Philip | Paisley, Mr Ian |
| Churchill, W. S. | Holt, Miss Mary | Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.) |
| Clark, William (Surrey, E.) | Hooson, Emlyn | Percival, Ian |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Hordern, Peter | Peyton, Rt. Hn. John |
| Clegg, Walter | Hornby, Richard | Pike, Miss Mervyn |
| Cockeram, Eric | Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) | Pounder, Rafton | |
| Cooke, Robert | Howell, David (Guildford) | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Coombs, Derek | Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Cooper, A. E. | Hunt, John | Proudfoot, Wilfred |
| Cordle, John | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis |
| Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Iremonger, T. L. | Quennell, Miss J. M. |
| Cormack, Patrick | James, David | Raison, Timothy |
| Costain, A. P. | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Critchley, Julian | Jessel, Toby | Redmond, Robert |
| Crouch, David | Johnson Smith, C. (E. Grinstead) | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) |
| Crowder, F. P. | Jopling, Michael | Rees, Peter (Dover) |
| Curran, Charles | Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) | Kellett, Mrs. Elaine | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Kilfedder, James | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| d'Avigdor-Goidsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack | Kimball, Marcus | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Dean, Paul | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. | King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Digby, Simon Wingfield | Kinsey, J. R. | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Dixon, Piers | Kirk, Peter | Rost, Peter |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Kitson, Timothy | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | Knox, David | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Drayson, G. B. | Lambton, Antony | Scott, Nicholas |
| du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Lane, David | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Dykes, Hugh | Langford-Holt, Sir John | |
| Eden, Sir John | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Sharples, Richard |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Le Marchant, Spencer | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Shelton, William (Clapham) |
| Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) | Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) | Simeons, Charles |
| Emery, Peter | Longden, Gilbert | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Eyre, Reginald | Loveridge, John | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Farr, John | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Fell, Anthony | MacArthur, Ian | Soref, Harold |
| Fenner, Mrs. Peggy | McCrindle, R. A. | Speed, Keith |
| Fidler, Michael | McLaren, Martin | Spence, John |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Sproat, Iain |
| Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton) | McMaster, Stanley | Stainton, Keith |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Steel, David |
| Foster, Sir John | McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) | Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper) |
| Fowler, Norman | Maddan, Martin | Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.). |
| Fox, Marcus | Madel, David | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. |
| Fry, Peter | Maginnis, John E. | Stokes, John |
| Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom |
| Gardner, Edward | Marten, Neil | Sutcliffe, John |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Mather, Carol | Tapsell, Peter |
| Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) | Tugendhat, Christopher | White, Roger (Gravesend) |
| Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart) | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) | van Strauhenzee, W. R. | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.) | Vaughan, Dr. Gerard | Wilkinson, John |
| Tebbit, Norman | Vickers, Dame Joan | Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher |
| Temple, John M. | Waddington, David | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret | Waller, David (Clitheroe) | Worsley, Marcus |
| Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth) | Walker, Rt. Hrs. Peter (Worcester) | Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. |
| Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.) | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek | Younger, Hn. George |
| Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) | Wall, Patrick | |
| Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy | Walters, Dennis | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Tilney, John | Ward, Dame Irene | Mr. Paul Hawkins and |
| Trafford, Dr. Anthony | Warren, Kenneth | Mr. Tim Fortesque. |
| Trew, Peter | Weatherill, Bernard | |
| NOES | ||
| Albu, Austen | Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisie) |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Ellis, Tom | Lipton, Marcus |
| Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) | English, Michael | Lomas, Kenneth |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Evans, Fred | Loughlin, Charles |
| Ashby, Jack | Fernyhough, E. | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) |
| Ashton, Joe | Fisher,Mrs. Doris(B'ham,Ladywood) | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson |
| Atkinson, Norman | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | McBride, Neil |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | McCartney, Hugh |
| Barnes, Michael | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | McElhone, Frank |
| Barnett, Joel | Foot, Michael | McGuire, Michael |
| Beaney, Alan | Ford, Ben | Mackenzie, Gregor |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Forrester, John | Mackie, John |
| Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Fraser, John (Norwood) | Mackintosh, John P. |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Freeson, Reginald | Maclennan, Robert |
| Bishop, E. S. | Galpern, Sir Myer | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) |
| Bienkinsop, Arthur | Garrett, W. E. | McNamara, J. Kevin |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Gilbert, Dr. John | MacPherson, Malcolm |
| Booth, Albert | Ginsburg, David | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Golding, John | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield,E.) |
| Bradley, Tom | Gourlay, Harry | Marquand, David |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Grant, George (Morpeth) | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |
| Brown, Hugh D. (r[...]gow, Provan) | Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) | Mayhew, Christopher |
| Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Meacher, Michael |
| Buchan, Norman | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'bury) | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Mendelson, John |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Mikardo, Ian |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Hamling, William | Milian, Bruce |
| Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) | Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) | Miller, Dr. M. S. |
| Cant, R. B. | Hardy, Peter | Milne, Edward (Blyth) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Molloy, William |
| Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield) | Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) | Hattersley, Roy | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Hilton, W. S. | Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) |
| Clark, David (Colne Valley) | Horam, John | Moyle, Roland |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Cohen, Stanley | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Murray, Ronald King |
| Coleman, Donald | Huckfield, Leslie | Ogden, Eric |
| Concannon, J. D. | Hughes, Mark (Durham) | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Conlan, Bernard | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) | O'Malley, Brian |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Oram, Bert |
| Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) | Hunter, Adam | Orbach, Maurice |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill) | Orme, Stanley |
| Cronin, John | Janner, Greville | Oswald, Thomas |
| Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) |
| Grossman, Rt. Hn. Richard | Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.) | Palmer, Arthur |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Dalyell, Tam | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Darling, Rt. Hn. George | John, Brynmor | Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Davidson, Arthur | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) | Pendry, Tom |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) | Pentland, Norman |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Perry, Ernest G. |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) | Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen) | Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg |
| Deakins, Eric | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) | Prescott, John |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Judd, Frank | Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund | Kaufman, Gerald | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Dempsey, James | Kinnock, Neil | Probert, Arthur |
| Doig, Peter | Lambie, David | Rankin, John |
| Dormand, J. D. | Lamond, James | Reed, D. (Sedgefield) |
| Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshlre, E.) | Latham, Arthur | Roes, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Lawson, George | Rhodes, Geoffrey |
| Driberg, Tom | Leadbitter, Ted | Richard, Ivor |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Dunn, James A. | Leonard, Dick | Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon) |
| Dunned, Jack | Lestor, Miss Joan | Rocterick,Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor) |
| Eadie, Alex | Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold | Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Edwards, Robert (Bliston) | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Roper, John |
| Rose, Paul B. | Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John | Watkins, David |
| Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) | Strang, Gavin | Weitzman, David |
| Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. | Wellbeloved, James |
| Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.) | Swain, Thomas | White, James (Glasgow, Pollok) |
| Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) | Taverne, Dick | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) | Whitlock, William |
| Sillars, James | Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.) | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Silverman, Julius | Tinn, James | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) |
| Skinner, Dennis | Tomney, Frank | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Small, William | Torney, Tom | Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton) |
| Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) | Tuck, Raphael | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Spearing, Nigel | Urwin, T. W. | |
| Spriggs, Leslie | Varley, Eric G. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Stallard, A. W. | Wainwright, Edwin | Mr. Joseph Harper and |
| Stewart, Donald (Western Isles) | Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints) | Mr. Kenneth Marks. |
| Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham) | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) | |
| Stoddart, David (Swindon) | Wallace, George |
§ Clause 59 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Clause 60 ordered to stand part of the Bill.