The Deputy ChairmanDoes the hon. Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Peter Archer) wish to move Amendment No. 199, in page 29, line 11, after "relates", insert "or that the provisions are not longer required"?
Mr. ArcherUnder protest, I refrain from moving it.
Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
§ Mr. MurrayIt would be wrong to take up much time on this Clause because, obviously, it is consequential upon those that we have just considered. However, there is one important point that I want to raise, since it is the basis on which we on this side of the Committee oppose the Clause.
It provides that, for a period of two years after a report has been made under the earlier provisions, the Industrial Court shall not entertain another application relating to the same circumstances. That is understandable. One would not want repeated applications to the court. It would not be helpful to industry to have that state of affairs.
The Clause goes on to say in subsection (1) that the court shall not entertain a report in such circumstances
… unless the Court is satisfied that there are special reasons for entertaining the application within that period.That provision causes a great deal of disquiet on this side of the Committee, for two main reasons. The first is that the Bill gives no conception of what the "special reasons" are intended to com- 312 prise. We do not know what is contemplated for the Industrial Court and whether the reasons are to be legal or industrial reasons. If they are industrial reasons, the provision is yet another illustration of the point made repeatedly from this side of the Committee that the court being set up is an inappropriate body to adjudicate on matters coming before it.If the "Special reasons" are industrial, we question whether a court of law—even an unusual one like this—is appropriate to adjudicate upon such matters. If the "special reasons" are legal, one has to bear in mind that a hybrid procedure has been used to take the reference to the Industrial Court.
The court is not a purely legal body. Before it gets a reference under Clauses 38 and 39 leading finally to a problem under Clause 40, matters are dealt with by those other hands mentioned in Clause 35 and by the Commission. Clause 35 makes it clear that, even at the level of the Commission, there will be a mixture of industrial knowledge and legal know-how which will make it important to know whether the "special reasons" are meant to be industrial or legal.
5.0 p.m.
Clause 37(3) deals with the Commission promoting and assisting discussions between the parties to the procedure agreement. It then stresses,
with a view to obtaining their agreement on new or revised provisions".Then follow the important words,…so formulated as to be capable of having effect as a legally enforceable contract.Even at the Commission level one will clearly need. legal advice, so that whatever is forged from the negotiations or discussions can be legally enforced. It seems, therefore, most important that we should know what special reasons are contemplated.I stress again the opposition of this side of the Committee to a body of this kind adjudicating on industrial matters. 313 For these and other reasons we shall oppose the Clause.
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI should like to give one word of explanation to the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Murray). Of course, the main objective of the Clause is to prevent a series of repeated applications when a matter has already been considered, adjudicated upon, and reported by the Commission.
The reference to special reasons is in the context of an application under Clause 35. The body which will have to consider whether special reasons exist is the industrial court. It will have to consider whether there are special reasons amongst those set out in Clause 35 which justify it, because of the persistence or recurrence of strife or disorder, making an additional reference to the Commission earlier than it would otherwise do so. The court will answer the questions, looking at the matter as a court and with the assistance of its industrial members. It will do that in the light of the legislation as a whole having regard to the factors which must be considered under Clause 35.
§ Mr. MurrayI must press the hon. and learned Gentleman on this point. What the Solicitor-General said seems to indicate that, although we are not to have an inquiry into the circumstances which give rise to a reference under Clause 35 for two years, in considering special reasons we shall go back to those circumstances.
§ The Solicitor-GeneralThis is right, but in changed circumstances. The original application will have been made and referred to the Commission which will probably have spent some time considering it and will have reported; but, for some reason or another, neither side will have applied to get the report made part of an enforceable procedure. It may be that 12 months thereafter the conditions in the unit of employment
§ have become so bad that, applying the tests set out in Clause 35, it is apparent that the maintenance of orderly industrial relations has been seriously impeded, and specially so, and that there have been substantial losses of work time. In those narrow circumstances I suggest that it is right that there should be this power in the court to conclude that there are special reasons. That is the way we approach the matter.
§ Mr. Hugh Jenkins (Putney)The hon. and learned Gentleman has given one example of what might constitute special circumstances. To justify the inclusion of this provision one would think that there must be more than a single set of circumstances. Before leaving the subject, might I ask the Solicitor-General to give two or three examples of conditions which would be regarded as special circumstances justifying this special consideration by the court?
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI have in fact, although in a compressed form, given more than one example. The phrase "special reasons" is not expressly defined. The question will have to be answered by the court in the light of the tests laid down in Clause 35.
There are several alternative matters. There are alternatives in Clause 35(3)(a) and (b). If those conditions, which normally allow a Clause 35 application to be considered favourably by the court, arise in a special way so that the court concludes that there are special reasons for allowing this early reapplication, then it is able to do so.
I point to two alternative matters, but there are more than two in Clause 35(3)(a) and (b). In that sense I commend the Clause as it stands to the Committee.
§ Question put:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 303, Noes 259.
319| Division No. 131.] | AYES | [5.5 p.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Balniel, Lord | Bitten, John |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Biggs-Davison, John |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Batsford, Brian | Blaker, Peter |
| Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) | Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) |
| Astor, John | Bell, Ronald | Body, Richard |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) | Boscawen, Robert |
| Awdry, Daniel | Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) | Bossom, Sir Clive |
| Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) | Benyon, W. | Bowden, Andrew |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Berry, Hn. Anthony | Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John |
| Brain, Bernard | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Montgomery, Fergus |
| Bray, Ronald | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | More, Jasper |
| Brewis, John | Hannam, John (Exeter) | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Harrison, Brian (Maldon) | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Mudd, David |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Murton, Oscar |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Haselhurst, Alan | Nabarro, Sir Gerald |
| Bryan, Paul | Hastings, Stephen | Neave, Airey |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M) | Havers, Michael | Nicholls, Sir Harmar |
| Buck, Antony | Hawkins, Paul | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Hayhoe, Barney | Normanton, Tom |
| Burden, F. A. | Heseltine, Michael | Nott, John |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Hicks, Robert | Onsow, Cranley |
| Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn) | Higgins, Terence L. | Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally |
| Carlisle, Mark | Hiley, Joseph | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) | Osborn, John |
| Cary, Sir Robert | Hill, James (Southampton, Test) | Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) |
| Channon, Paul | Holland, Philip | Page, Graham (Crosby) |
| Chapman, Sydney | Holt, Miss Mary | Page, John (Harrow, W.) |
| Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher | Hordern, Peter | Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.) |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Hornby, Richard | Peel, John |
| Churchill, W. S. | Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia | Percival, Ian |
| Clark, William (Surrey, E.) | Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) | Peyton, Rt. Hn. John |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Howell, David (Guildford) | Pike, Miss Mervyn |
| Clegg, Walter | Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Cockeram, Eric | Hunt, John | Pounder, Rafton |
| Cooke, Robert | Hutchinson, Michael Clark | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Coombs, Derek | Iremonger, T. L. | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Cooper, | A. E. James, David | Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L. |
| Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Proudfoot, Wilfred | |
| Cormack, Patrick | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis |
| Costain, A. P. | Jessel, Toby | Quennell, Miss J. M. |
| Critchley, Julian | Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) | Raison, Timothy |
| Crouch, David | Jopling, Michael | Ramsden, Rt. Hon., James |
| Crowder, F. P. | Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | Redmond, Robert |
| Curran, Charles | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Reed, Laurence (Bolton, E.) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Kellett, Mrs. Elaine | Rees, Peter (Dover) |
| Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) | Kershaw, Anthony | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| d'Avlgdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Kilfedder, James | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Dean, Paul | King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Digby, Simon Wingfield | Kinsey, J. R. | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Dixon, Piers | Kirk, Peter | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Kitson, Timothy | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | Knox, David | Rossl, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Drayson, G. B. | Lambton, Antony | Rost, Peter |
| du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Lane, David | Royle, Anthony |
| Dykes, Hugh | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Eden, Sir John | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Le Marchant, Spencer | Sandys, Rt. Hn. D. |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Scott, Nicholas |
| Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) | Scott-Hopkins, James | |
| Emery, Peter | Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) | Sharples, Richard |
| Eyre, Reginald | Longden, Gilbert | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Farr, John | Loveridge, John | Shelton, William (Clapham) |
| Fell, Anthony | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Simeons, Charles |
| Fenner, Mrs. Peggy | MacArthur, Ian | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Fidler, Michael | McCrindle, R. A. | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Finsherg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) | McLaren, Martin | Soref, Harold |
| Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton) | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Speed, Keith |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | McMaster, Stanley | |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) | Spence, John |
| Foster, Sir John | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Sproat, lain |
| Fowler, Norman | McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) | Stainton, Keith |
| Fox, Marcus | Maddan, Martin | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Fry, Peter | Madel, David | Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper) |
| Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Maginnis, John E. | Stodart,Anthony (Edinburgh, W.) |
| Gardner, Edward | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Marten, Neil | Stokes, John |
| Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Mather, Carol | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Maude, Angus | Sutcliffe, John |
| Glyn, Dr. Alan | Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald | Tapsell, Peter |
| Goodhart, Philip | Mawby, Ray | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Gorst, John | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart) |
| Gower, Raymond | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.) |
| Gray, Hamish | Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Tebbit, Norman |
| Green, Alan | Miscampbell, Norman | Temple, John M. |
| Grieve, Percy | Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W.) | Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret |
| Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth) |
| Grylls, Michael | Moate, Roger | Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.) |
| Gummer, Selwyn | Molyneaux, James | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Gurden, Harold | Money, Ernie | Tilney, John |
| Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) | Monks, Mrs. Connie | Trafford, Dr. Anthony |
| Hall, John (Wycombe) | Monro, Hector | Trew, Peter |
| Tugendhat, Christopher | Walters, Dennis | Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher |
| van Straubenzee, W. R. | Ward, Dame Irene | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Vaughan, Dr. Gerard | Warren, Kenneth | Worsley, Marcus |
| Vickers, Dame Joan | Weatherill, Bernard | Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. |
| Waddington, David | Wells, John (Maidstone) | Younger, Hn. George |
| Walder, David (Clitheroe) | White, Roger (Gravesend) | |
| Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester) | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek | Wiggin, Jerry | Mr. Victor Goodhew and |
| Wall, Patrick | Wilkinson, John | Mr. Tim Fortescue. |
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Fernyhough, E. | Loughlin, Charles |
| Albu, Austen | Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham,Ladywood) | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) |
| Allen, Scholefieid | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson |
| Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | McBride, Neil |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Foley, Maurice | McCartney, Hugh |
| Ashley, Jack | Foot, Michael | McElhone, Frank |
| Ashton, Joe | Ford, Ben | McGuire, Michael |
| Atkinson, Norman | Forrester, John | Mackenzie, Gregor |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Fraser, John (Norwood) | Mackie, John |
| Barnes, Michael | Freeson, Reginald | Mackintosh, John P. |
| Barnett, Joel | Galpern, Sir Myer | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Garrett, W. E. | McNamara, J. Kevin |
| Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Gilbert, Dr. John | MacPherson, Malcolm |
| Bishop, E. S. | Ginsburg, David | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Golding, John | Mallaiieu, J. P. W.(Huddersfield, E.) |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | Marquand, David |
| Booth, Albert | Gourlay, Harry | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) | Grant, George (Morpeth) | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |
| Bradley, Tom | Grant John D. (Islington, E.) | Mayhew, Christopher |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Meacher, Michael |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert |
| Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Mendelson, John |
| Buchan, Norman | Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) | Mikardo, Ian |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Hardy, Peter | Millan, Bruce |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Harper, Joseph | Miller, Dr. M. S. |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Milne, Edward (Biyth) |
| Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) | Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith | Molloy, William |
| Cant, R. B. | Hattersley, Roy | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) |
| Carmichael, Nell | Heffer, Eric S. | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Carter, Ray (Birmingham, Northfield) | Hilton, W. S. | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) | Horam, John | Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Abeavon) |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Clark, David (Colne Valley) | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Murray, Ronald King |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Huckfield, Lesile | Ogden, Eric |
| Cohen, Stanley | Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Coleman, Donald | Hughes, Mark (Durham) | O'Malley, Brian |
| Concannon, J. D. | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) | Oram, Bert |
| Conlan, Bernard | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Orbach, Maurice |
| Corbel, Mrs. Freda | Hunter, Adam | Orme, Stanley |
| Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) | Irvine,RtHn.SirArthur(Edge Hill) | Oswald, Thomas |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Janner, Greville | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) |
| Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Palmer, Arthur |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) | Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.p'cras,S.) | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven) | ||
| Dalyell, Tam | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Pardoe, John |
| Darling, Rt. Hn. George | ||
| Davidson, Arthur | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) | John Brynmor | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Pendry, Tom |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr Tydvll) | Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) | Pentland, Norman |
| Davis, S. Clinton (Hackney, C.) | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Perry, Ernest G. |
| Deakins, Eric | Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.) | Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg. |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen) | Prescott, John |
| Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund | Jones, T. Alec (Rhodda, W.) | Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Dempsey, James | Judd, Frank | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Doig, Peter | Kaufman, Gerald | Probert, Arthur |
| Dormand, J. D. | Kelley, Richard | Rankin, John |
| Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) | Kinnock, Neil | Reed, D. (Sedgefield) |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Lambie, David | Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) |
| Driberg, Tom | Lamond, James | Rhodes, Geoffrey |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Latham, Arthur | Richard, Ivor |
| Dunn, James A. | Lawson, George | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Dunnett, Jack | Leadbitter, Ted | Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon) |
| Eadie, Alex | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Edelman, Maurice | Leonard, Dick | Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor) |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Lestor, Miss Joan | Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Lewis, Arthur (w. Ham, N.) | Roper, John |
| Ellis, Tom | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Rose, Paul B. |
| English, Michael | Lipton, Marcus | Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) |
| Evans, Fred | Lomas, Kenneth | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) |
| Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) | Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John | Wallace, George |
| Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne) | Strang, Gavin | Watkins, David |
| Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.) | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. | Wellbeloved, James |
| Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) | Swain, Thomas | White, James (Glasgow, Pollok) |
| Sillars, James | Taverne, Dick | Whitlock, William |
| Silverman, Julius | Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardlff,W.) | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Skinner, Dennis | Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.) | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Small, William | Tinn, James | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) | Tomney, Frank | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) |
| Spearing, Nigel | Torney, Tom | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Spriggs, Leslie | Tuck, Raphael | Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton) |
| Stallard, A. W. | Urwin, T. W. | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Steel, David | Variey, Eric G. | |
| Stewart, Donald (Western Isles) | Wainwright, Edwin | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham) | Walden, Bran(B'm'ham, All Saints) | Mr. Kenneth Marks and |
| Stoudart, David (Swindon) | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) | Mr. James Hamilton. |
§ Clause 40 ordered to stand part of the Bill.