HC Deb 06 March 1963 vol 673 cc403-12

3.47 p.m.

Mr. E. G. Willis (Edinburgh, East)

I beg to move, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to repeal Section 330 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1947. As Scottish Members will know, Section 330 enables certain persons to enjoy the full rights of councillors in the Councils of Perth, Dundee, Aberdeen, Glasgow and Edinburgh, without passing through the normal processes of election. In Perth, Dundee and Aberdeen it is the Dean of Guild who enjoys the privilege, while in Glasgow and Edinburgh both the Dean of Guild and the Deacon Convener of Trades enjoy it.

Their right to the enjoyment of this unique and thoroughly undemocratic privilege is a legacy of the history of the development of our town councils. For about 400 years in Scotland the Guild Brethren and the Trades have been represented on our councils. In fact, they practically formed the closed corporations which were the town councils before the passing of the Municipal Reform (Scotland) Act, 1833.

Looking back to that time, one cannot but be impressed by the scandalous manner in which they discharged their responsibilities. They brought Edinburgh virtually to the edge of bankruptcy. In fact, Edinburgh did not clear the debt until about a hundred years later. Writing of the Edinburgh Town Council immediately prior to the passing of the 1833 Act, Lord Cockburn said that it was omnipotent, corrupt and impenetrable. Nothing was beyond its grasp. He went on to say that it was silent, powerful, submissive, mysterious and irresponsible.

Mr. Cyril Bence (Dumbartonshire, East)

Tories.

Mr. Willis

He added that for a good number of reasons Edinburgh was probably rather better than most Scottish councils, and speaking generally of the councils in Scotland, he said that they were sinks of political and municipal iniquity, steeped in the baseness which they propagated and the types and causes of the corruption that surrounded them. So much for the domination of the councils by the members of the guilds. When the 1833 Act was passed the representation of these bodies was unfortunately continued, in the manner that I have already mentioned, not by the activities of Members of this House but of Members of another place. Various attempts have been made to change that since then, so far without success.

I suggest that since the war circumstances have arisen in at least four of these cities which point to the necessity for taking the steps proposed in the Bill and abolishing the right of the Dean of Guild and the Deacon Convener to sit as full councillors. In Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Dundee positions have been reached where the balance of power has almost been in the hands of these unelected representatives. In Glasgow, in 1949, we had the notoriously disquieting situation where the two non-elected members, one of whom was flown home from Paris especially for the job, decided who was to be the Lord Provost of Glasgow, against the majority of the elected members of the Council. This was a sordid piece of political jiggery-pokery such as we expect from the Tory Party in Scotland, but it had its repercussions because it helped to lead afterwards to the very heavy defeat of the Progressives at subsequent municipal elections.

In Edinburgh we now have 34 Moderate councillors, 30 Labour councillors and five Liberals, and it can easily be seen that it is quite possible for the events which occurred in Glasgow in 1949 to be repeated in Edinburgh this year when we have to elect the new Lord Provost. I must say on behalf of the gentlemen in Edinburgh, however, that they resigned from the Moderate Party—

Mr. George Lawson (Motherwell)

Moderate Party? Tory Party.

Mr. Willis

Tory Party—when this present position arose, and they have acted with circumspection.

However, the matter does not end with the election of the Lord Provost. These two unelected members, with responsibility to none but a tiny handful of wealthy and influential people, can determine decisions affecting the lives of hundreds of thousands of people and involving the expenditure of enormous sums of the ratepayers' and taxpayers' money.

The question which has to be answered is what special significant features the Guildery and Trades have which give them the right, this blatantly undemocratic right, to a privileged position in the running of our municipal affairs. I have read the reports of most of the debates of the past and I have not been able to find an answer to that question. Those who have supported the present position in those debates have done so on the ground that these privileged people have been and are persons of distinction and integrity, that they are concerned with a great deal of charitable work and that in the past, and even at present, have rendered great service to the municipalities.

All those things may be true, but they do not give them any automatic right to sit and vote in the council. In all these cities there are many persons of distinction and integrity and there are many who devote themselves to valuable social and charitable works and there are many people who make very important contributions to the lives of these communities. But none of them claims the right to sit in the council. It is sometimes also suggested that the proposals contained in my Bill would injure the work at present done by the Dean of Guild Court. This is nonsense. All it would do would be to prevent the Dean of Guild from automatically sitting and voting in the council. The courts would continue to function as they do at present.

Try as we might, it is very difficult to find any justification for the present position. It is as though the president of the Federation of British Industries and the chairman of the British Manufacturers' Association sat in the House of Commons, able, in an evenly divided House, to make the important decisions of the House. So far as I know, nobody in the House of Commons would tolerate that position for a moment. If we are not prepared to tolerate it in the House of Commons, we should no longer tolerate it in the five cities I have mentioned.

As long ago as 1835, a Royal Commission recommended that these persons should no longer sit ex officio in the councils of Scotland. I trust that 128 years later the House will accept that recommendation and support my Bill.

3.55 p.m.

Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith (Glasgow Hillhead)

In the past, the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) has often been responsible for causing me to get to my feet, so it is perhaps not inappropriate that today, when I am speaking from these benches for the first time in thirteen years, it should also be in reply to him. Unfortunately, however, I am sorry to say—and this I do not expect to be a surprise to him—that as usual I find that I cannot agree with him and that I must therefore ask the House not to grant him permission to introduce a Bill to amend Section 330.

I can scarcely think of a less appropriate moment for making a change of this sort. As the House knows, Scotland is going through a period of industrial transformation. At such a time, nothing should be done to weaken in the councils the traditional link which exists between the elected representatives and the business community, a link which the Deans of Guild and the Deacons Convener so effectively provide.

I realise that the existence of these ex officio members in an elected body is apparently contrary to democracy, as the hon. Member suggested, but there are plenty of examples where the elected and the non-elected share power and responsibility together. In certain local education authorities there are nominees from the churches and although we in the House are an elected body, Parliament as a whole is not. In the other place there are hereditary peers, elected peers and appointed peers, and this combination does not seem to prevent us from regarding Parliament as a whole as a thoroughly sound democratic body. I think that we are all agreed upon that. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] This is very interesting. Is it part of the policy of the party opposite to have single-chamber government? I thought that we were all agreed generally on our Parliamentary set-up.

If this combination of elected and non-elected is good for Parliament, it is surely acceptable for local government, particularly as it is on such a modest scale and has been practised for so long. I agree that the existence of these ex officio members, as was suggested in the report of 1835, could mean that certain citizens were represented more than once, but in practice this does not amount to very much.

To take Glasgow as an example—and I regret that for reasons of time I must confine myself to Glasgow—out of a council of 113 only two are ex officio members, and that does not seem to me a very large proportion. In any case, with the growth of communications, a considerable number of the business community now live in the suburbs and do not have a vote in the city. When one considers that many local electors whose votes determine policy do not contribute to the cost of that policy, it does not seem unreasonable that those who do contribute to the cost of the policy should be allowed to retain—and there is nothing new about this and it is merely retaining—this modest form of representation, which in the case of Glasgow has existed for 350 years. I know that "One man, one vote" is a very good principle, but it is not the only principle. Another principle which concerned the House, admittedly some time ago, was "No taxation without representation".

I do not know that I would necessarily suggest making a change to give effect to that principle, but as it is already recognised in our law in Scotland by the presence of these ex officio members, it would be wrong to alter it now, particularly when there is no great public demand for this change.

I realise, of course, that there is a suspicion, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, that these ex officio members are, to put it bluntly, "in the pocket" of the Progressive Party. I suggest that this suspicion is not justified by the facts. For example, in Glasgow only the other day there was a spirited debate on liquor advertising, and the ex officio members supported the Socialist Party against the Progressives. In Edinburgh where, as the hon. Gentleman said, the parties are evenly divided, in a debate on a rather contentious subject—whether local councilors should have their telephone bills paid for them—the ex officio members decided to abstain from voting.

I admit that in the past there may have been occasional lapses from the strictest interpretation of independence, and there may indeed be occasional lapses in the future. But I believe that the risk of this is slight, because fundamentally these men are of independent outlook and they are deliberately trying to be independent. The party system is certainly necessary. But surely there is room, particularly in local affairs, for the continuance alongside the parties of a few independently-minded men of the character and calibre of the Deans of Guild and the Deacons Convener.

I fully admit that there is nothing to stop them voting on party political lines if they want to do so; but, in fact, they do not do it. Furthermore, our Constitution is not a static thing. It is constantly developing, and when a convention of genuine independence is being built up, as it is here, it seems to me a great pity to remove these men from the council at the very time when industrial changes makes their advice particularly valuable.

It is not as though they have achieved their position easily or without effort. I believe that it takes about six years for a councillor in Glasgow to be a magistrate and it takes twice as long to become a Deacon Convener. Throughout this period the Deacon Convener is gaining valuable experience by handling charitable funds and serving on various public bodies, of an educational, cultural and philanthropic nature. I am not saying that this ex officio road is a better road to the council chamber than the normal elective process. I do say that it is not an unworthy road; that it demands a long apprenticeship and that those who choose these ex officio members are themselves widely experienced in public affairs. Indeed, many of them head firms whose names are household words throughout the world. It is a remarkable record and when this system has been operating for so long, surely we can agree that two representatives from an electorate of this sort—which in Glasgow numbers 10,000—and is pretty democratic—cannot do other than enrich a city council without in any way damaging the basic principles of democracy.

In deciding what is the right thing to do, I do not think that we in this House should forget the feelings of the corporations and the possible adverse effects which any change may have upon their public-spiritedness. They value these seats in the council very highly—

Dr. J. Dickson Mabon (Greenock)

Why?

Mr. Galbraith

—and if, after so long, they are to be deprived of them for no valid reason except a kind of impracticable doctrinaire logic, I am afraid that that spirit which sustains them may be damaged. We do not know. But there is this risk, and the sense of service is not so abundant, I suggest, that we can afford to squander it wantonly in this way. Rather, we should do everything we can to encourage it. The hon. Gentleman's Bill would not have that effect.

For all these reasons, and especially because the system has worked so well for so long and because there is no general demand for its abolition, I ask the House to reject the hon. Gentleman's request, and to allow this well-tried and beneficial method of representation to continue its good work in nurturing the development of our great trading cities in Scotland.

Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 12 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business):—

The House divided: Ayes 166, Noes 190.

Division No. 68.] AYES [4.5 p.m.
Ainsley, William Hannan, William Pavitt, Laurence
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Harper, Joseph Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)
Awbery, Stan (Bristol Central) Hart, Mrs. Judith Pentland, Norman
Bacon, Miss Alice Hayman, F. H. Plummer, Sir Leslie
Barnett, Guy Healey, Denis Popplewell, Ernest
Beaney, Alan Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (RwlyRegis) Prentice, R. E.
Bellenger, Rt. Hon, F. J. Hilton, A. V. Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Bence, Cyril Holman, Percy Pursey, Cmdr. Harry
Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Holt, Arthur Rankin, John
Benson, Sir George Houghton, Douglas Redhead, E. C.
Blackburn, F. Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr) Reid, William
Blyton, William Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Reynolds, G. W.
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan) Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Robertson, John (Paisley)
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. Hunter, A. E. Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton)
Bradley, Tom Hynd, H. (Accrington) Rogers, G. H. R. (Kensington, N.)
Brockway, A. Fenner Hynd, John (Attercliffe) Ross, William
Brown, Thomas (Ince) Jenkins, Roy (Stechford) Royle, Charles (Salford, West)
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield) Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Callaghan, James Jones, Dan (Burnley) Skeffington, Arthur
Castle, Mrs. Barbara Jones, J, Idwal (Wrexham) Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)
Crosland, Anthony Kelley, Richard Small, William
Crossman, R. H. S. Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Cullen, Mrs. Alice King, Dr. Horace Sorensen, R. W.
Dalyell, Tam Lawson, George Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Lipton, Marcus Spriggs, Leslie
Davies, Harold (Leek) Lubbock, Eric Stewart, Michael (Fulham)
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Swingler, Stephen
Deer, George McCann, John Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Dempsey, James MacDermot, Niall Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Dodds, Norman McInnes, James Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)
Driberg, Tom McKay, John (Wallsend) Thornton, Ernest
Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John Mackie, John (Enfield, East) Timmons, John
Ede, Rt. Hon. C. McLeavy, Frank Wainwright, Edwin
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Warbey, William
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Mallalieu, J.P.W. (Huddersfield, E.) Watkins, Tudor
Edwards, Walter (Stepney) Mapp, Charles
Finch, Harold Marsh, Richard Weitzman, David
Fitch, Alan Mason, Roy White, Mrs. Elrene
Foot, Dingle (Ipswich) Mellish, R. J. Whitlock, William
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Mendelson, J. J. Wigg, George
Forman, J. C. Millan, Bruce Wilkins, W. A.
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Milne, Edward Williams, D. J. (Neath)
George, LadyMeganLloyd(Crmrthn) Mitchison, G. R. Williams, Ll. (Abertillery)
Ginsburg, David Moyle, Arthur Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)
Gooch, E. G. Mulley, Frederick Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon) Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)
Gourlay, Harry Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.) Winterbottom, R. E.
Greenwood, Anthony Oram, A. E. Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Grey, Charles Oswald, Thomas Woof, Robert
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Owen, Will Yates, Victor (Ladywood)
Griffiths, W. (Exchange) Padley, W. E.
Gunter, Ray Paget, R. T. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.) Pargiter, G. A. Mr. Steele and Mr. Manuel.
Hamilton, William (West Fife) Parker, John
NOES
Agnew, Sir Peter Hare, Rt. Hon. John Page, Graham (Crosby)
Allason, James Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) Page, John (Harrow, West)
Barlow, Sir John Harris, Reader (Heston) Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)
Batsford, Brian Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Peel, John
Bell, Ronald Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd) Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm) Harvie Anderson, Miss Pike, Miss Mervyn
Bidgood, John C. Hay, John Pilkington, Sir Richard
Biffen, John Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Llonel Pitt, Dame Edith
Biggs-Davison, John Henderson, John (Cathcart) Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch
Bishop, F. P. Hendry, Forbes Price, David (Eastleigh)
Black, Sir Cyril Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) Prior, J. M. L.
Bossom, Hon. Clive Hobson, Sir John Proudfoot, Wilfred
Bourne-Arton, A. Hocking, Philip N. Pym, Francis
Brewis, John Holland, Philip Quennell, Miss J. M.
Hollingworth, John Ramsden, James
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter Hopkins, Allan Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin
Brown, Alan (Tottenham) Hornby, R. P. Rees, Hugh
Bryan, Paul Howard, John (Southampton, Test) Renton, Rt. Hon. David
Bullard, Denys Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John Ridley, Hon. Nicholas
Bullus, Wing Commander Eric Hughes-Young, Michael Ridsdale, Julian
Burden, F. A. Hutchison, Michael Clark Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard
Butcher, Sir Herbert Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Russell, Ronald
Campbell, Rt. Hn. Sir D.(Belfast, S.) James, David St. Clair, M.
Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Scott-Hopkins, James
Channon, H. P. G. Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) Seymour, Leslie
Chichester-Clark, R. Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Sharples, Richard
Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.) Johnson Smith, Geoffrey Skeet, T. H. H.
Clark, William (Nottingham, S.) Jones, Arthur (Northan[...]s, S.) Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)
Cleaver, Leonard Kimball, Marcus Smithers, Peter
Cole, Norman Kirk, Peter Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John
Cooke, Robert Kitson, Timothy Spearman, sir Alexander
Corfield, F. V. Langford-Holt, Sir John Speir, Rupert
Costain, A. P. Leburn, Gilmour Stanley, Hon. Richard
Courtney, Cdr. Anthony Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Stevens, Geoffrey
Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) Lilley, F. J. p. Studholme, Sir Henry
Crawley, Aidan Lindsay, Sir Martin Summers, Sir Spencer
Critchley, Julian Linstead, Sir Hugh Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)
Dalkeith, Earl of Litchfield, Capt. John Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.)
Dance, James Longden, Gilbert Teeling, Sir William
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Loveys, Walter H. Temple, John M.
Digby, Simon Wingfield Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M. McAdden, Sir Stephen Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin
Doughty, Charles MacArthur, Ian Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon
Duncan, Sir James McLaren, Martin Turner, Colin
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Maclay, Rt. Hon. John Tweedsmuir, Lady
Elliott,R. W. (Nwcastle-upon-Tyne, N.) Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute&N, Ayre) van Straubenzee, W. R.
Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.) Vane, W. M. F.
Errington, Sir Eric Maddan, Martin Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis
Farey-Jones, F. W. Maitland, Sir John Wakefield, Sir Wavell
Farr, John Markham, Major Sir Frank Walker-smith, Rt. Hon. Sir Derek
Finlay, Graeme Marlowe, Anthony Wall, Patrick
Forrest, George Marshall, Douglas Ward, Dame Irene
Foster, John Matthews, Gordon (Meriden) Webster, David
Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) Mawby, Ray Wells, John (Maidstone)
Freeth, Denzil Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Whitelaw, William
Gammans, Lady Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. Williams, Dudley (Exeter)
Gibson-Watt, David More, Jasper (Ludlow) Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central) Morrison, John Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)
Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) Nabarro, Sir Gerald Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.) Nicholson, Sir Godfrey Wise, A. R.
Goodhart, Philip Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael Woodhouse, C. M.
Goodhew, Victor Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard
Gresham Cooke, R. Oakshott, Sir Hendrie TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Gurden, Harold Osborn, John (Hallam) Mr. Galbraith and Mr. Stodart.
Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough) Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)