§
Resolution reported,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision with respect to local government and the functions of local authorities in the metropolitan area, it is expedient to authorise—
and in this Resolution the expression "Minister" includes the Board of Trade.
§ Resolution read a Second time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution.
§ 4.20 p.m.
§ Mr. Michael Stewart (Fulham)I wish to say only a few words on this matter. When we were dealing with the Money Resolution in Committee, I asked the Government what would be its effect on certain Amendments which hon. Members might wish to move in Committee. I had in mind particularly Amendments which might make it possible for membership of the Greater London Council to be a salaried post, Amendments which would make it possible for help to be given to the truncated counties of Essex, Kent and Surrey at the expense of the Exchequer rather than at the expense of the inhabitants of Greater London, and Amendments which might make it possible for the Government to help in any compensation that it might be appropriate to pay to the staff of the London County Council or other bodies affected by the Bill.
I asked whether Amendments of that kind would be in order under the Money Resolution as drafted. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing
§ and Local Government was not able to give me a firm reply. I make no complaint about that, because the exact significance of a Money Resolution is always a difficult and complex matter. Since then the Minister has been kind enough to communicate with me about it.
§ I want now to state what I believe the position to be and what I hope the Government may be able to confirm. I believe it to be as follows: that it is not possible, of course, for the Government to give firm advance rulings on something which is within the province of the Chair; that the Government cannot positively say that this, that or the other Amendment will be in order, but they can say that they have so drafted the Money Resolution than it is their intention that such Amendments should be in order and that to the best of their belief such Amendments would be in order with the Money Resolution drafted as it is.
§ I understand the position today to be that the Money Resolution is, in the Government's view, so drafted that Amendments dealing with the three topics I have mentioned—salaries for members of the Greater London Council, Exchequer payments to the truncated counties, and Exchequer assistance for compensation to staff are matters which could properly be discussed by means of Amendments in Committee. They are matters in which a great many hon. Members are interested and I hope that the Government will be able to confirm that the position is as I have described it.
§ 4.23 p.m.
§ The Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Sir Keith Joseph)Subject always to the discretion of the Chair, I can confirm that the advice I am given is that these three subjects are covered within the Money Resolution and, therefore, can be debated.
§ Question put, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 240, Noes 185.
105| Division No. 23.] | AYES | [4.25 p.m. |
| Agnew, Sir Peter | Balniel, Lord | Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Allan, Robert (Partington, S.) | Barter, John | Bidgood, John C. |
| Allason, James | Batsford, Brian | Bitten, John |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Biggs-Davison, John |
| Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham) | Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm) | Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel |
| Bishop, F. P. | Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton) | Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale) |
| Black, Sir Cyrll | Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythneshawe) | Partridge, E. |
| Bossom, Hon. Clive | Hirst, Geoffrey | Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe) |
| Bourne-Arton, A. | Hocking, Philip N. | Peel, John |
| Box, Donald | Holland, Philip | Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth |
| Braine, Bernard | Hollingworth, John | Pilkington, Sir Richard |
| Brewis, John | Hopkins, Alan | Pitman, Sir James |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.Col. Sir Walter | Hornby, R. P. | Pott, Percivall |
| Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry | Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P. | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Brown, Alan (Tottenham) | Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives) | Price, H. A. (Lewisham, W.) |
| Bryan, Paul | Howard, John (Southampton, Test) | Profumo, Rt. Hon. John |
| Buck, Antony | Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John | Proudfoot, Wilfred |
| Bullard, Denys | Hughes-Young, Michael | Pym, Francis |
| Burden, F. A. | Hulbert, Sir Norman | Quennell, Miss J. M. |
| Butcher, Sir Herbert | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Ramsden, James |
| Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.) | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Rawlinson, Sir Peter |
| Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) | James, David | Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin |
| Carr, Compton (Barons Court) | Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) | Rees, Hugh |
| Cary, Sir Robert | Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) | Renton, Rt. Hon. David |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Johnson, Eric (Blackley) | Ridley, Hon. Nicholas |
| Chataway, Christopher | Johnson Smith, Geoffrey | Roots, William |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Jones, Arthur (Northants, S) | Ropner, Col. Leonard |
| Clark, William (Nottingham, S.) | Joseph, Rt. Hon. Sir Keith | St. Clair, M. |
| Clarke, Brig. Terence(Portsmth, W.) | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Cleaver, Leonard | Kerans, Cdr. J. S. | Sharples, Richard |
| Cooke, Robert | Kerby, Capt. Henry | Shaw, M. |
| Cooper, A. E. | Kershaw, Anthony | Shepherd, William |
| Cordeaux, Lt-Col. J. K. | Kimball, Marcus | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Kirk, Peter | Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick) | |
| Corfield, F. V. | Kitson, Timothy | Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher |
| Costain, A. P. | Lagden, Godfrey | Spearman, Sir Alexander |
| Coulson, Michael | Lambton, Viscount | Speir, Rupert |
| Courtney, Cdr. Anthony | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Stanley, Hon. Richard |
| Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Stevens, Geoffrey |
| Crawley, Aidan | Leburn, Gilmour | Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.) |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Stodart, J. A. |
| Cunningham, Knox | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Studholme, Sir Henry |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lilley, F. J. P. | Summers, Sir Spencer |
| Dance, James | Linstead, Sir Hugh | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Litchfield, Capt. John | Teeling, Sir William |
| Deedes, Rt. Hon. W. F. | Longbottom, Charles | Temple, John M. |
| Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M. | Longden, Gilbert | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Drayson, G. B. | Loveys, Walter H. | Thomas, Peter (Conway) |
| Duncan, Sir James | Lucas, Sir Jocelyn | Thompson, Sir Kenneth (Walton) |
| Eden, John | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | MacArthur, Ian | Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter |
| Elliott, R.W. (Nwcastle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Maclay, Rt. Hon. John | Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin |
| Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute&N. Ayrs) | Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, w.) |
| Erroll, Rt. Hon. F. J. | Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.) | Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon |
| Farey-Jones, F. W. | McMaster, Stanley R. | Turner, Colin |
| Fell, Anthony | Maddan, Martin | Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H. |
| Fisher, Nigel | Maginnis, John E. | Tweedsmuir, Lady. |
| Foster, John | Markham, Major Sir Frank | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) | Marlowe, Anthony | Vane, W. M. F. |
| Gammans, Lady | Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest | Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Gardner, Edward | Marshall, Douglas | Vickers, Miss Joan |
| Gibson-Watt, David | ||
| Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Marten, Neil | Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone) |
| Glover, Sir Douglas | Mathew, Robert (Honiton) | Walder, David |
| Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham) | Matthews, Gordon (Meriden) | Walker, Peter |
| Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.) | Mawby, Ray | Wall, Patrick |
| Goodhew, Victor | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Gough, Frederick | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Webster, David |
| Grant-Ferris, R. | Mills, Stratton | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Green, Alan | Montgomery, Fergus | Williams, Dudley (Exeter) |
| Gresham Cooke, R. | More, Jasper (Ludlow) | Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.) |
| Gurden, Harold | Morgan, William | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough) | Morrison, John | Wise, A. R. |
| Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) | Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Harrison, Brian (Maldon) | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Woodhouse, C. M. |
| Harvey, Sir Arthur vere(Macclesf'd) | Neave, Alrey | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Harvie Anderson, Miss | Nicholson, Sir Godfrey | Woollam, John |
| Hastings, Stephen | Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard | Worsley, Marcus |
| Hay, John | Osborn, John (Hallam) | |
| Henderson, John (Cathcart) | Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Hendry, Forbes | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Mr. J. E. B. Hill and |
| Hiley, Joseph | Page, John (Harrow, West) | Mr. McLaren. |
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Awbery, Stan (Bristol, Central) | Blyton, William |
| Ainsley, William | Bence, Cyril | Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. |
| Albu, Austen | Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Boyden, James |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Benson, Sir George | Braddock, Mrs. E. M. |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Blackburn, F. | Bray, Dr. Jeremy |
| Brockway, A. Fenner | Hoy, James H. | Plummer, Sir Leslie |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) | Popplewell, Ernest |
| Bullus, Wing Commander Eric | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Prentice, R. E. |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Hunter, A. E. | Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Callaghan, James | Hynd, H. (Accrington) | Probert, Arthur |
| Carmichael, Nell | Hynd, John (Attercliffe) | Pursey, Cmdr. Harry |
| Caetle, Mrs. Barbara | Irving, Sydney (Dartford) | Rankin, John |
| Chapman, Donald | Janner, Sir Barnett | Reynolds, G. W. |
| Cliffe, Michael | Jeger, George | Rhodes, H. |
| Collick, Percy | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Jones, Rt.Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield) | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.) | Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) |
| Darling, George | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton) |
| Davies, C. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) | Ross, William |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Kelley, Richard | Russell, Ronald |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. | Shinwell. Rt. Hon. E. |
| Deer, George | King, Dr. Horace | Short, Edward |
| Dempsey, James | Ledger, Ron | Silverman, Julius (Aston) |
| Diamond, John | Lee, Frederick (Newton) | Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) |
| Dodds, John | Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.) | Skeffington, Arthur |
| Driberg, Tom | Lipton, Marcus | Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.) |
| Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John | Loughlin, Charles | Small, William |
| Ede, Rt. Hon. C. | Lubbock, Eric | Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) |
| Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Snow, Julian |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | McCann, John | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Edwards, Walter (Stepney) | MacColl, James | Steele, Thomas |
| Fernyhough, E. | McInnes, James | Stewart, Michael (Fulham) |
| Fitch, Alan | McKay, John (Wallsend) | Stonehouse, John |
| Fletcher, Eric | Mackie, John (Enfield, East) | Stones, William |
| Foot, Dingle (Ipswich) | McLeavy, Frank | Strachey, Rt. Hon. John |
| Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall) |
| Forman, J. C. | MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) | Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.) |
| Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Swingler, Stephen |
| Galpern, Sir Myer | Manuel, Archie | Symonds, J. B. |
| George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Crmrthn) | Mapp, Charles | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) |
| Ginsburg, David | Mason, Roy | Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline) |
| Gourlay, Harry | Mayhew, Christopher | Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.) |
| Greenwood, Anthony | Mellish, R. J. | Thornton, Ernest |
| Grey, Charles | Mendelson, J. J. | Thorpe, Jeremy |
| Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Milian, Bruce | Timmons, John |
| Griffiths, W. (Exchange) | Milne, Edward | Wainwright, Edwin |
| Grimond, Rt. Hon. J. | Mitchison, G. R. | Warbey, William |
| Gunter, Ray | Monslow, Walter | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.) | Moody, A. S. | Whitlock, William |
| Hamilton, William (West Fife) | Moyle, Arthur | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Hannan, William | Neal, Harold | Willey, Frederick |
| Harper, Joseph | Oram, A. E. | Williams, LI. (Abertillery) |
| Healey, Denis | Oswald, Thomas | Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.) |
| Herbison, Miss Margaret | Padley, W. E. | Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) |
| Hewitson, Capt. M. | Paget, R. T. | Winterbottom, R. E. |
| Hill, J. (Midlothian) | Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.) | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Hilton, A. V. | Pargiter, G. A. | Yates, Victor (Ladywood) |
| Holman, Percy | Parker, John | Zilliacus, K. |
| Holt, Arthur | Parkin, B. T. | |
| Houghton, Douglas | Pavitt, Laurence | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr) | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) | Mr. Redhead and Mr. Lawson |
| Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Peart, Frederick |