HC Deb 06 July 1955 vol 543 cc1224-34
Mr. Deedes

I beg to move, in page 27, line 19, at the end to insert:

12.—(1) The provisions of this paragraph shall have effect in the case of a Gas Board, where gas is manufactured by the Board in a gasworks which is situated partly in one rating area and partly in one or more other rating areas.

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1) of section five of this Act, the Gas Board shall be treated as manufacturing gas in each of the rating areas in which a part of the gasworks is situated, notwithstanding that no gas is actually manufactured in one or more of those areas.

(3) For the purposes of paragraph 4 of this Schedule, the gas manufactured in the gasworks in any year shall be treated as apportioned between all the rating areas in which parts of the gasworks are situated, in such proportions as may be agreed between the rating authorities of those areas and the Gas Board: Provided that if any apportionment required by this sub-paragraph, for the purpose of apportioning the Board's adjusted total of rateable values for any year, has not been agreed between the rating authorities and the Board before the end of the month of September preceding the beginning of that year, the apportionment required by this sub-paragraph shall be made by the Minister and notified by him to the rating authorities and to the Board as soon as may be after the end of that month.

(4) In this paragraph "gasworks" means any group of premises within one curtilage which is occupied by a Gas Board for the purposes of the manufacture of gas: Provided that a group of premises shall not be treated as lacing otherwise than within one curtilage by reason only that it is traversed by a public highway.

This Amendment fulfils the undertaking which we gave in Committee with regard to the apportionment of gas manufactured in a gas works which extends into more than one rating area. It provides that the gas manufactured is to be apportioned as agreed between the rating authorities and the gas boards. If agreement upon this point is not reached by the end of September the Minister will make the apportionment.

Hon. Members may ask why no formula has been devised to meet this case. The reason is that no method could be devised which would give equitable results in all cases without requiring valuation. For instance, if we based the formula upon 1949 values, it would obviously be unfair in cases where there had since been a change of circumstances. By leaving the apportionment to the local authorities we make sure that all the local circumstances are taken into account, and there is no need for any unduly complicated valuation—which is one of the things that we are trying to avoid in any addition to the formula.

We have made the end of September the deadline for agreement, after which the Minister is to make the apportionment, and time is undoubtedly short. This fact should be stressed, because, under paragraph 6 of the Third Schedule, gas boards must send in all particulars by the end of October. That means that there is no time to spare, and we hope that in the fewplaces where negotiations will have to take place they will open at the earliest possible moment. If that is done in the three or four instances which hon. Members opposite have in mind there is no reason why we should not get an equitable result, without, I hope, needing the intervention of the Minister.

The Amendment does not go as far as some hon. Members would have liked—notably the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn)—but it meets the commitment which we made during the Committee stage, and I hope that the House will find it acceptable.

Mr. Blackburn

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after "means" to insert "(a)."

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

This Amendment can be taken with the following Amendment, at the end add:

"or (b) any group of premises (whether adjacent or apart and however far apart), of which some (hereinafter called 'the principal premises') are occupied by a gas board for the purposes of the actual manufacture of gas and the remainder for purposes associated with the operations carried on in the principal premises, including the storage, purification, compression or other treatment of the gas manufactured in the principal premises."
Mr. Blackburn

Yes, Mr. Deputy-Speaker.

The purpose of my two Amendments is to give a wider definition to gas works, in an attempt to deal with the problem which I have raised in previous stages of the Bill. I welcome the Government Amendment: I agree that it is an attempt to deal with an injustice. We come back to the formula which I said earlier was the "sacred cow" of the Ministry. The original formula did not meet the case of gas works which were situated within the area of more than one rating authority, and yet were within one curtilage—to use the phrase in the Government Amendment.

It would have been quite wrong to ignore this problem and to have perpetuated this injustice, but by righting one injustice and ignoring another, where a similar principle is involved, the Minister is placing himself in an indefensible position. Is the London area to have justice while other parts of the country are to be denied it? Speaking earlier this afternoon my hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Mr. Hastings) said, "London has been regarded in our legis- lation as something distinct from the rest of the country." But we cannot have one system of justice for London and a different system for the rest of the country.

The concentration of gas production in an attempt to reduce overheads is a policy with which no one would wish to quarrel, yet it is manifestly unjust that rates should be lost by a rating authority within whose area is situated a gas works which is no longer devoted to the manufacture of gas but is still used for other ancillary purposes. As I said during the Committee stage, such gas works cover the same area as they did before, and they occupy space which could accommodate other rate-producing hereditaments.

The problem to which I am referring is likely to become much more prevalent in the future, because the gas boards will continue to pursue their policy of concentration. The rating authorities which will be most affected are, in the main, the small industrial towns in densely populated areas. These already have a high rate poundage, and they also suffer considerably because of the derating of industry. They are often the losers because the Exchequer equalisation grants are payable to county councils and not to district councils. Further, they generally have a high proportion of substandard houses. I mention these facts to show that the small authorities have already got their difficulties. They require more rateable value and not less, and need all the help which the Minister of Housing and Local Government can give them.

8.30 p.m.

The same principle is involved here as in the case of London, in respect of which the Minister moved his Amendment. The only difference in the case that I am citing is that the gas works are not within one curtilage. If the Minister is prepared to give justice to London, I hope he will also extend it to the smaller authorities for whom I am pleading.

I hope that I have proved to the House that for the gas works of the rating authorities with which I am dealing the principle is exactly the same as for the gas works with which the Minister dealt in his Amendment.

Mr. Mitchison

I beg to second the Amendment to the proposed Amendment.

I shall not take long about it. It appears that the sacred cow has already had one calf, even on the other side of the road. We are trying this time to produce another. There is no particular reason why the definition of a gas works should be purely geographical, especially in a Clause which contains a lot of notional hereditaments. The division could well be functional. It is very rough on the local authorities who will have the decayed and disused gas works, probably in increasing quantities, left for storage if they are not able to get a penny out of what may well be extensive sites. Kettering gas works is not very good.

Mr. Deedes

As I feared, the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn) said that his Amendment was only a logical extension of the Amendment which I moved a few moments ago. The hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) referred to a calf to which he said the sacred cow had given birth. The Amendment now proposed would not be a calf but something in the nature of a bull elephant, because it goes a great deal further than the Amendment I have just moved, and it would very much widen the scope of this provision. It would cover premises which are wide apart, very great distances apart.

The further they are apart the more likely it is that local government boundaries would intervene, and therefore the greater the likelihood of a very much larger number of cases arising. That is where the great difference lies between our Amendment and that of the hon. Member. The number of cases which might arise under his Amendment is beyond computing. We do not have to compute them, but it is certain that his Amendment would make a substantial and fundamental alteration to the formula. I am sorry to have to repeat the word. His Amendment would open up further opportunities for dispute. Our Amendment does not have these potentialities.

There are obvious grounds for contention in the hon. Gentleman's Amendment. There is no reason why any formula should not be subject to contention, but one result which might clearly follow in this case is that we should not be able to settle the apportionment in time for entry into the list by the end of December. If a dispute arises it has to be resolved. Without doing what the hon. Gentleman has accused us of doing, quoting this formula as a sort of sacred cow, I think there are very strong reasons against accepting an Amendment which might lead to an unknown number of cases arising, some of which are bound to be disputations. Where there was a dispute there would be difficulty in getting ourselves ready for December.

I hope that the House will see the administrative difficulty, which would affect the whole work of the formula and therefore of the Bill. I hope that the hon. Gentleman, to whom I gave an undertaking at an earlier stage of the proceedings, will not now press his Amendment.

Mr. Ede

It is quite certain that any provision in any rating and valuation Bill will be disputatious and will lead to a number of arguments from which learned counsel, professional valuers and other expert witnesses will make a good living for a good many years to come. Therefore, the last part of what the hon. Gentleman has said does not influence me very much. I have sat at too many assessment committee meetings hearing these various people producing contradictory arguments for the confusion of the committee ever to be impressed with a belief that we can have some rating and valuation Bill which will not give rise to disputes and litigation.

The hon. Gentleman's earlier defence of the position he was adopting was that this

was a great grievance and therefore not capable of being dealt with. The more cases that arise the more essential it is that the matter should be considered. All over the area which, prior to the creation of the South Eastern Gas Board was controlled by the old Wandsworth and District Gas Company, there are these gas works that were superseded from time to time as the company that started in Wandsworth extended until it included the Leatherhead Gas Company. At Sutton, Epsom and other places old gas works were thrown out of use. The sites are still retained by the South Eastern Gas Board, and from what has been said I understand that they will cease to be rateable hereditaments in the local authority area in which they are situated.

To recognise a gas works separated only by a local authority boundary from works connected with it and yet to say nothing can be done where there is a similar position, except that the two places do not happen to be contiguous to that boundary, is really a confession of impotence on the part of the Parliamentary Secretary that is greatly to be deplored.

Question put, That "(a)" be there inserted in the proposed Amendment:—

The House divided: Ayes 169, Noes 207.

Division No. 21.] AYES [8.38 p.m.
Ainsley, J. w. Collins, V.J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury) Hale, Leslie
Allaun, F. (Salford, E.) Corbet, Mrs. Freda Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Cove, W. G. Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)
Anderson, Frank Craddook, George (Bradford, S.) Hamilton, W. W.
Bacon, Miss Alice Cronin, J. D. Hannan, W.
Balfour, A. Crossman, R. H. S. Hastings, S.
Bartley, P. Cullen, Mrs. A. Hayman, F. H.
Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Healey, Denis
Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.) Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) Herbison, Miss M.
Blackburn, F. Deer, G. Holman, P.
Boardman, H. Dodds, N. N. Houghton, Douglas
Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.) Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch) Howell, Denis (All Saints)
Bowles, F. G. Dye, S. Hubbard, T. F.
Boyd, T. C. Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)
Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Brockway, A. F. Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) Hunter, A. E.
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Evans, Edward (Lowestoft) Hynd, H. (Accrington)
Brown, Rt. Hon, George (Belper) Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury) Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Brown, Thomas (Ince) Fernyhough, E. Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)
Burke, w. A. Fienburgh, W. Johnson, James (Rugby)
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) Jones, Jack (Rotherham)
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Fletoher, Eric Jones, J. Idewal (Wrexham)
Callaghan, L. J. Forman, J. C. Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)
Carmichael, J. Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Kenyon, C.
Campion, A. J. Gibson, C. W. Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.
Chapman, W. D. Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. King, Dr. H. M.
Clunie, J. Grey, C. F. Lawson, G. M.
Coldriok, W. Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Ledger, R. J.
Collick, p, H. (Birkenhead) Griffiths, William (Exchange) Lee, Frederick (Newton)
Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Palmer, A. M. F. Swingler, S. T.
Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.) Taylor, John (West Lothian)
Lewis, Arthur Pargiter, G. A. Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Lindgren, G. S. Peart, T. F. Tomney, F.
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn
Logan, D. G. Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) Usborne, H. C.
MacColl, J. E. Probert, A. R. Viant, S. P.
MoGhee, H, G. Proctor, W. T. Warbey, W. N.
Molnnes, J. Pryde, D. J. Watkins, T. E.
McKay, John (Wallsend) Pursey, Cmdr. H. Weitzman, D.
McLeavy, F. Rankin, John Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Mahon, S. Rhodes, H. West, D. G.
Mainwaring, W. H. Robens, Rt. Hon. A. Wheeidon, W. E.
Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Roberts, Albert (Normanton) White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Mann, Mrs. Jean Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Mayhew, C. P. Ross, William Willey, Frederick
Mitchison, G, R. Shawoross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley Williams, David (Neath)
Moody, A. s. Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)
Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) Short, E. W. Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)
Mort, D. L. Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)
Moss, R. Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill) Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)
Moyle, A. Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.) Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)
Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon) Slater, J. (Sedgefield) Winterbotton, Richard
Oliver, G. H. Sorensen, R. W. Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Oram, A. E. Sparks, J. A. Zilliacus, K.
Orbaoh, M. Steele, T.
Oswald, T. Stewart, Michael (Fulham) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Padley, w. E. Stones, W. (Consett) Mr. Pearson and Mr. Holmes.
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.
NOES
Agnew, Cmdr. P. C. Dunoan, Capt. J. A. L. Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)
Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) Duthie, W. S. Johnson, Eric (Blackley)
Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J. Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn Kerby, Capt. H. B.
Arbuthnot, John Errington, Sir Eric Kerr, H. W.
Ashton, H, Erroll, F. J. Kershaw, J. A.
Atkins, H. E. Farey-Jones, F. W. Lagden, G. W.
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. Fell, A. Lancaster, Col. C. G.
Baldwin, A. E. Finlay, Graeme Leavey, J. A.
Balniel, Lord Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F. Leburn, W. G.
Barber, Anthony Fort, R. Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)
Barlow, Sir John Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cambe & Lonsdale) Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)
Barter, John Freeth, D. K. Linstead, Sir H. N.
Baxter, Sir Beverley Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D. Llewellyn, D. T.
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, s.) Glover, D. Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)
Bennett, Dr. Reginald Gomme-Dunoan, Col. A. Longden, Gilbert
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Gower, H. R. Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick)
Bidgood, J. c. Graham, Sir Fergus Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Bishop, F. P. Green, A. Macdonald, Sir Peter
Black, C. W. Gresham Cooke. R. Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry
Body, R. F. Gurden, Harold McKibbin, A. J.
Bossom, Sir A. C. Hall, John (Wycombe) Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)
Boyd Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A. Harris, Frederio (Croydon, N.W.) McLaughlin, Mrs. p.
Boyle, Sir Edward Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon) McLean, Neil (Inverness)
Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, w.) Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Maddan, Martin
Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfd) Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)
Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton) Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.) Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)
Bryan, P. Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) Manningham-Butler, Rt. Hn. Sir R.
Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T. Harvle-Watt, Sir George Markham, Major Sir Frank
Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. Hay, John Marshall, Douglas
Burden, F. F. A. Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Mathew, R.
Cary, Sir Robert Heath, Edward Maude, Angus
Channon, H. Heath, Edward Mawby, R. L.
Chichester-Clark, R. Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton) Medlioott, Sir Frank
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.
Cole, Norman Hill, John (S. Norfolk) Moore, Sir Thomas
Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Nabarro, G. D. N.
Cooper-Key, E. M. Holt, A. F. Nairn, D. L. S.
Corfield, Capt. F. V. Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence Neave, Airey
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire) Nicholls, Harmar
Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hn. H. F. C. Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives) Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)
Crouch, R. F. Howard, John (Test) Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.
Crowder, Sir John (Finohley) Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) O'Neill Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)
Crowder, Petre (Rulslip—Northwood) Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)
Cunningham, S. K. Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J. Osborne, C.
Currie, G. B. H. Hughes-Young, M. H. C. Page, R. G.
Dance, J. C. G. Hulbert, Sir Norman Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)
Davidson, viscountess Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh.W.) Peyton, J. W. w.
D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Hylton-Foster, Sir H. B. H. Pickthorn, K. W. M.
Deedes, W. F. Irvine, Bryant Codman (Rye) Pitman, I. J.
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. MoA. Jenkins, Robert (Dulwieh) Pott, H. P.
Doughty, C. J. A. Jennings, J. C. (Burton) Powell, J. Enoch
Price, David (Eastleigh) Speir, R. M. Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.
Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L. Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.) Vane, W. M. F.
Raikes, Sir Victor Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard Vickers, Miss J. H.
Rawlinson, P. A. G. Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.) Vosper, D. F.
Redmayne, M. Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.) Wade, D. W.
Rees-Davies, W. R. Stewart Henderson (Fife, E.) Wall, Major Patrick
Remnant, Hon. P. Storey, S. Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.
Renton, D. L. M. Studholme, H. G. Whitelaw, W. S. I. (Penrith & Border)
Ridsdale, J. E. Summers, G. S. (Aylesbury) Williams, Rt. Hn. Charles (Torquay)
Rippon, A. G. F. Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)
Roberts, Peter (Heeley) Teeling, W. Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Robertson, Sir David Thomas, Rt. Hn. J. P. L. (Hereford) Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.) Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) Wills, G. (Bridgwater)
Robson-Brown, W. Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Roper, Sir Harold Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon,S.) Wood, Hon. R.
Sandys, Rt. Hon. D. Thornton-Kemsley, C. N. Woollam, John Victor
Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.) Yates, William (The Wrekin)
Shepherd, William Touche, Sir Gordon
Spearman, A. C. M. Turner, H. F. L. TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Mr. Wakefield and Mr. Godber.

Question put and agreed to.

8.45 p.m.

Mr. A. E. Dram (East Ham, South)

I should like to express appreciation to the Minister for introducing this Amendment in response to the point which I raised in Committee in connection with the Beckton Gasworks to meet a position which would have been quite serious for the ratepayers of East Ham.

The Bill as originally drafted threatened to deal two body blows to the ratepayers of East Ham—one in respect of the sewer about which we have heard so much, and the other in respect of the huge gasworks, part of which is in the constituency which I have the honour to represent. I, with a number of my hon. Friends, was very gratified to hear earlier in the day that the situation concerning the sewer is being met, and I am equally gratified to know that this Amendment will meet the position concerning the gasworks in my area.

Naturally, I regret, as does my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn), that the Minister has not been able to widen the provisions of the Amendment to meet the situation in my hon. Friend's division. But although he has not had satisfaction, I hope he will not begrudge me the satisfaction which I feel about this Amendment. I hope he will agree that half a loaf is better than none, even though I happen to have the half loaf and he has none. I feel that we have done reasonably well for the ratepayers in avoiding these two body blows which were threatened by the Bill as originally drafted, and I should like to express my thanks to the Minister.

Mr. Austen Albu (Edmonton)

I have no intention of opposing the Amendment, although the Borough of Edmonton has some anxieties about what may be the result of accepting it, especially as the Minister was unable to accept my hon. Friend's first Amendment in Committee dealing with the by-products plant. The Minister will be aware that there is in Edmonton a large gasworks and a substantial by-products plant.

I think we can be satisfied with the situation, provided that the apportionment made in accordance with the amended Schedule is reasonable and is based on the capital value of the premises and plant—that is to say, the existing division of rateable value. I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to say that it would be based on the 1949 value, with any changes made in accordance with circumstances, and I imagine that it should be possible to arrive at agreement.

In Committee my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Sir F. Messer) quoted some figures which I am afraid I could not understand. The figure of rateable value which I have for the works alone in the Borough of Edmonton is £4,560, and as far as can be ascertained the figure for Tottenham is £346. That does not include the main it is the works alone, but it includes the by-products plant in the Borough of Edmonton. Provided that there are no substantial changes in the proportions of the rateable value, I think that this provision will be acceptable.

Amendment agreed to.