HC Deb 30 January 1947 vol 432 cc1241-9

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.

[Major MILNER in the Chair]

Motion made, and Question proposed, That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to make fresh provision for planning the development and use of land, and for purposes connected therewith (in this resolution referred to as 'the Act'), it is expedient to authorise— A. The charging on the Consolidated Fund of the principal of and interest on stock to be issued under the Act in satisfaction of payments to be made thereunder in respect of interests in land which are depreciated in value by virtue of the provisions of the Act (not exceeding in the aggregate, together with payments to be made by virtue of any corresponding provisions which may be enacted in relation to Scotland, the sum of three hundred million pounds); the charging on and issuing out of that Fund of expenses in connection with the issue and management of any such stock; and the issuing out of that Fund of sums necessary to enable the Central Land Board to be established under the Act (in this resolution referred to as 'the Board ') to pay interest on any such payments pending the satisfaction thereof. B. The issuing out of the Consolidated Fund of sums necessary to enable the Board to make other payments under the Act in respect of interests in land which are depreciated as aforesaid, being land which has sustained war damage in such circumstances that the appropriate payment under the War Damage Act, 1943, is a value payment, and to pay interest on such payments pending the satisfaction therof. C. The raising of money by the Treasury, in any manner in which they are authorised to raise money under the National Loans Act, 1939,—

  1. (1) for the purpose of providing sums for the redemption of any such stock as is mentioned in paragraph A of this resolution;
  2. (2) for the purpose of providing sums to-be issued out of the Consolidated Fund as-mentioned in paragraph A or paragraph B of this resolution, or of providing for the replacement of sums so issued.
D. The payment by the Board into the Exchequer, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of annual instalments equal in the aggregate to the aggregate amount of—
  1. (1) any such payments as are mentioned in paragraph A of this resolution which are satisfied by the issue of stock; and
  2. (2) any sums issued to the Board out of the Consolidated Fund as mentioned in that paragraph in respect of interest on such payments,
together with interest on the said aggregate amount; and the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of sums so paid into the Exchequer, and their application in redemption or repayment of debt or, in so far as they represent interest, in payment of interest otherwise payable out of the permanent annual charge for the National Debt. E. The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of expenses incurred by the Minister of Town and Country Planning (in this resolution referred to as "the Minister") in making grants, in accordance with regulations made under the Act, as follows, that is to say:
  1. (1) grants to local authorities in respect of expenditure incurred by those authorities under the Act or under the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944, in connection with the acquisition and clearing of land acquired or appropriated by those authorities for or in connection with the redevelopment of areas as a whole, or for the purpose of bringing derelict land into use (including 1243 sums paid by those authorities by way of compensation or otherwise, in connection with any restriction on the development or use of such land imposed by or under any enactment), not exceeding—
    1. (a) in the case of land acquired or appropriated for the redevelopment as a whole of areas of extensive war damage, or for the relocation of population or industry or the replacement of open space in the course of such redevelopment, ninety per cent. of the annual costs incurred or treated in accordance with regulations as being incurred by the said authorities in respect of the borrowing of money to defray expenditure in respect of which the grants are made;
    2. (b)in the case of any other land, eighty per cent. of the said annual costs;
  2. (2) grants to local authorities—
    1. (a) in respect of expenditure incurred by those authorities in the payment of compensation (other than compensation for the acquisition of land) under the provisions of the Act in that behalf;
    2. (b) in respect of loss incurred by those authorities in connection with the acquisition and clearing of land other than such land as is mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph (including sums paid by those authorities by way of compensation or otherwise in connection with any restriction on the development or use of such land imposed by or under any enactment),
    not exceeding sixty per cent. of the amount of the expenditure or loss in respect of which the grants are made;
  3. (3) grants to local authorities in respect of expenditure incurred by those authorities (including expenditure incurred by joint committees of which those authorities were constituent authorities) under Subsection (4) of Section ten of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, or under that Subsection as applied by Section four of the Town and Country Planning (Interim Development) Act, 1943, or under Subsection (2) of Section seven of the said Act of 1943, in connection with applications for permission to develop land dealt with after the eleventh day of May, nineteen hundred and forty-three, or in respect of the revocation or modification, after that date, of any permission to develop land whether granted before or after that date.
 F. The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the following expenditure, that is to say:—
  1. (1) the remuneration and allowances of members, officers and servants of the Board, and any administrative expenses incurred by the Board for the purposes of the Act;
  2. (2) any expenses of the Minister in connection with the making or amendment of a development plan under the provisions of the Act in that behalf;
  3. (3) any expenses incurred by any Minister or by the Board in the acquisition of land under powers conferred in that behalf by the Act, other than expenses so incurred which 1244 are required to be defrayed out of the Road Fund;
  4. (4) any sums authorised or required, to be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament by virtue of any of the provisions of Sections nineteen to thirty of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944, as incorporated with the Act;
  5. (5) any additional expenditure incurred by any Minister in the payment of compensation under Section twenty-four of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944, by reason of the provisions' of the Act amending that Section;
  6. (6) any expenses incurred by the Minister of Transport (other than expenses incurred in the construction or improvement of roads) under the provisions of the Act relating to the stopping up or diversion of highways;
  7. (7) any sums payable into the Road Fund for the purpose of defraying expenses of the Minister of Transport which are payable out of that fund by virtue of any of the provisions of the Act;
  8. (8) any sums required by the Board for the repayment, in accordance with the provisions of the Act, of sums received by the Board in respect of development charges (including sums received by the Board in lieu of such charges under the provisions of the Act relating to land of local authorities and of development corporations established under the New Towns Act, 1946) or for making contributions towards compensation payable by local authorities under the Act;
  9. (9) any expenses incurred by any Minister or by the Board in the payment of compensation for damage caused in the exercise of any power of entry conferred under the Act;
  10. (10) any expenses of the Minister in the payment of remuneration and allowances to the chairman and members of any tribunal, or in the payment of the expenses of any advisory committee, established for the purposes of the Act or of regulations made thereunder;
  11. (11) any administrative expenses incurred by the Minister for the purposes of the Act.
 G. The payment into the Exchequer of any sums received by the Board in respect of the disposal of land acquired by the Board under powers conferred in that behalf by the Act and of any sums received by the Board, in accordance with arrangements made under the Act in respect of Crown Land, in substitution for development charges thereunder."—[Mr. Silkin.]—(King's Recommendation Signified.)

10.24 P.m.

Sir John Mellor (Sutton Coldfield)

I wish to make some reference to this Money Resolution. In regard to paragraph A, this authorises The charging on the Consolidated Fund of the principal of and interest on stock to be issued under the Act in satisfaction of payments to be made thereunder … not exceeding £300 million. First of all, I think that the word "satisfaction" is rather a curious expression, because satisfaction is apparently under duress. What I wish to protest against is the limiting in the Money Resolution of the sum to £300 million, because that will restrict further discussion under the Bill. Once the amount is fixed as a maximum in the Money Resolution, I think I am right in saying it will be quite impossible for any Amendment to be moved in Committee designed to increase the amount of compensation. We have seen, from the discussion we have had, how complex the computations are. We had some interesting calculations from the Minister involving the question of the number of years purchase which should be assumed in making calculations. I am sure the Minister will agree that those are questions which ought to be thrashed out in Committee, and I am sure the Minister would be the first to desire, in Committee, to justify his calculations. If it is quite impossible for the Opposition to put down any Amendments designed to increase the compensation, surely discussion will be gravely handicapped, and indeed, in many cases, be stifled. I hope very much that this Money Resolution can be reconsidered and its terms widened in scope so as to make it possible to have in Committee a real discussion of the question of compensation, in order that the Minister's calculations and other calculations put forward by hon. Members on this side can be seriously considered and understood.

There is a further point to which I wish to refer. Paragraph (c) authorises the raising of money for the purpose of providing sums for the redemption of the stock to be issued in compensation. I want to have an assurance—and perhaps the Financial Secretary will be able to

enable the Minister to give it—that that means that a redeemable stock will be issued, because the Resolution merely authorises money to be provided for the redemption of stocks. I would like to get it quite clear that it is the intention of the Government to issue a redeemable stock in compensation.

10.27 P.m.

The Minister of Town and Country Planning (Mr. Silkin)

I will reply to the hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir J. Mellor). I am sorry he does not like the word "satisfaction." I could hardly say "in dissatisfaction." It is in satisfaction of £300 million; it is not in satisfaction of hon. Members.

Sir J. Mellor

My point is that they have no option to take cash. They have to take stock in lieu of cash.

Mr. Silkin

As to the £300 million, of course it would have been possible, I suppose, theoretically, to have come to the Committee with a Financial Resolution without stating an amount, but I think the Committee would very properly have criticised such a Resolution. The sum of £300 million has been before the House for two days, and every hon. and right hon. Gentleman who has taken part in the Debate has discussed the justification for that figure. The House having voted, I think it can now be taken that the House, by a large majority, is satisfied that £300 million is the right figure, and therefore, I submit, quite properly, that it goes into the Financial Resolution. On the last point, I think I can give the hon. Gentleman more satisfaction. The stock is redeemable.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 315; Noes, 122.

Division No. 64.] AYES. [10.30 p,m.
Adams, Richard (Balham) Bechervaise, A. E. Brown, George (Belper)
Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South) Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Allen, A, C. (Bosworth) Benson, G. Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Berry, H. Buchanan, G.
Allighan, Garry Beswick, F. Burden, T. W.
Alpass, J. H. Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) Burke, W. A.
Anderson, A. (Motherwell) Bitng, G. H. C. Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)
Attewell, H. C. Binns, J. Byers, Frank
Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Blenkinsop, A. Carmichael, James
Awbery, S. S. Blyton, W. R. Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Ayles, W. H. Boardman, H. Chamberlain, R. A.
Bacon, Miss A. Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W. Champion, A. J.
Baird, J. Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton) Chetwynd, G. R.
Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J. Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge) Clitherow, Dr. R.
Barstow, P. G. Braddock, T. (Mitcham) Cocks, F. S.
Barton, C. Bramall, Major E. A. Coldrick, W
Battley, J. R. Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell) Collick, P.
Collindridge, F. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Proctor, W. T.
Collins, V. J. Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.) Pursey, Cmdr. H.
Colman, Miss G. M. Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme) Randall, H. E.
Comyns, Dr. L. Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.) Ranger, J.
Cook, T. F. Hynd, Rt. Hon. J. B. (Attercliffe) Rankin, J.
Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G. Irving, W. J. Rees-Williams, D. R.
Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W)
Corlett, Dr J. Janner, B. Reid, T. (Swindon)
Corvedale, Viscount Jay, D. P. T. Rhodes, H.
Cove, W. G. Jeger, G. (Winchester) Richards, R.
Crawley, A. Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.) Ridealgh, Mrs. M.
Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir S. Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley) Robens, A.
Crossman, R. H. S. Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools) Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)
Daggar, G. Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow) Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)
Daines, P. Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin) Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)
Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Keenan, W. Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
Davies, Clement (Montgomery) Kendall, W. D. Rogers, G. H. R.
Davies, Edward (Burslem) Kenyon, C. Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Davies, Ernest (Enfield) Key, C. W. Royle, C.
Davies, Harold (Leek) King, E. M. Sargood, R.
Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.) Kinley, J. Scollan, T.
Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) Kirby, B. V. Scott-Elliot, W.
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Lang, G. Shackleton, Wing.-Cdr. E. A. A.
Deer, G. Lavers, S Sharp, Granville
Delargy, Captain H. J. Lee, F. (Hulme) Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Diamond, J. Lee, Miss J. (Cannock) Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)
Dobbie, W. Leonard, W. Shurmer, P.
Dodds, N. N. Lever, N. H. Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.
Donovan, T. Levy, B. W Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Driberg, T. E. N. Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton) Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich) Lewis T (Southampton) Skeffington, A. M.
Durbin, E. F. M. Lindgren, G. S. Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.
Dye, S. Lipson, D. L. Smith, C. (Colchester)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)
Edelman, M. Logan, D. G. Solley, L. J.
Edwards, John (Blackburn) Longdan, F. Sorensen, R. W.
Edwards, N. (Caerphilly) Lyne, A. W. Soskice, Maj. Sir F.
Edwards, W. J. (Whiteehapel) McAdam, W. Sparks, J. A.
Evans, E. (Lowestoft) McAllister, G. Stamford, W.
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury) Mack, J. D. Steele, T.
Ewart, R. McKay, J. (Wallsend) Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)
Fairhurst, F. Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.) Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)
Farthing, W. J. McKinlay, A. S. Stross, Dr. B.
Field, Capt. W. J. McLeavy, F. Stubbs, A. E.
Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.) MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Swingler, S.
Follick, M. Mallalieu, J. P. W. Symonds, A. L.
Fool, M. M. Mann, Mrs. J. Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)
Forman, J. C. Manning C (Camberwell, N.) Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Fraser, T. (Hamilton) Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping) Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)
Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford) Marshall, F. (Brightside) Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)
Freeman, Peter (Newport) Mathers, G. Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)
Gaitskell, H. T. N. Medland, H. M. Thomas, John R. (Dover)
Ganley, Mrs. C. S. Mellish, R. J. Thomson, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)
George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey) Middleton, Mrs. L. Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
Gibbins, J. Mikardo, Ian Thurtle, E.
Gibson, C. W. Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R. Tiffany, S.
Gilzean, A. Mitchison, Maj. G. R Timmons, J.
Goodrich, H. E. Monslow, W. Titlerington, M. F.
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield) Moody, A. S. Tolley, L.
Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood) Morley, R. Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.
Grenfell, D. R. Morris, P. (Swansea, W.) Tuner-Samuels, M.
Grey, C. F. Mort, D. L. Usborne, Henry
Grierson, E. Moyle, A. Vernon, Maj. W. F.
Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley) Murray, J. D. Viant, S. P.
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly) Neal, H. (Claycross) Wadsworth, G.
Gunter, R. J. Nichol, Mrs M. E. (Bradford, N) Walkden, E.
Guy, W. H. Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford) Walker, G. H.
Haire, John E. (Wycombe) Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford) Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)
Hale, Leslie Noel-Buxton, Lady Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)
Hall, W. C, O'Brien, T. Warbey, W. N.
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R. Oldfield, W. H. Watkins, T. E.
Hannan, W. (Maryhill) Oliver, G. H. Watson, W. M.
Hardman, D. R. Orbach, M. Weitzman, D.
Hardy, E. A. Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth) Wells, P. L. (Faversham)
Harrison, J. Palmer, A. M. F. Wells, W. T. (Walsall)
Hastings, Dr. Somerville Pargiter, G. A. West, D. G.
Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) Parker, J. Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) Parkin, B. T. Wigg, Col. G. E.
Herbison, Miss M. Paton, J. (Norwich) Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.
Hewitson, Capt. M. Pearson, A. Wilkes, L.
Hobson, C. R. Peart, Capt. T. F. Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)
Holman, P. Piratin, P. Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)
Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth) Plaits-Mills, J. F. F. Williams, D. J. (Neath)
House, G. Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield) Williams, W. R. (Heston)
Hoy, J. Popplewell, E. Wills, Mrs E. A.
Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.) Porter, G. (Leeds) Wilmot, Rt. Hon. J.
Wilson, J. H. Wyatt, W.
Wise, Major F. J. Yates, V. F. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Woodburn, A. Younger, Hon. Kenneth Mr. Snow and Mr. Simmons.
Woods, G. S. Zilliacus, K.
NOES.
Agnew, Cmdr. P. G. Gage, C. Mellor, Sir J.
Aitken, Hon. Max Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)
Amory, D. Heathcoat Gammans, L. D. Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)
Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G. Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C. E.
Baldwin, A. E. Grant, Lady Neven-Spence, Sir B.
Beamish, Maj. T. V. H. Gridley, Sir A. Nicholson, G.
Beechman, N. A. Grimston, R. V. Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.
Bennett, Sir P. Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge) Nutting, Anthony
Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells) Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V. Orr-Ewing, I. L.
Boothby, R. Haughton, S. G. Osborne, C.
Bossom, A. C. Head, Brig. A. H. Peto, Brig. C. H. M.
Bower, N. Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt Hon. Sir C Pitman, I, J.
Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)
Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G. Hogg, Hon. Q. Price-White, Lt.-Col. D.
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W Hollis, M. C. Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Hope, Lord J. Rayner, Brig. R.
Bullock, Capt. M. Hurd, A. Renton, D.
Butcher, H. W. Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.) Roberts, H. (Handsworth)
Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n) Jeffreys, General Sir G. Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)
Carson, E. Joynson-Hicks, Lt.-Cdr. Hon. L. W. Ropner, Col. L.
Challen, C. Kerr, Sir J. Graham Sanderson, Sir F
Channon, H. Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H. Smith, E. P. (Ashford)
Clarke, Col. R. S. Lambert, Hon. G. Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)
Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G. Langford-Holt, J. Sutcliffe, H.
Cooper-Key, E. M. Law, Rt. Hon. R. K. Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)
Corbet, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow) Lennox-Boyd, A. T. Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)
Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. Linstead, H. N. Teeling, William
Crosthwaite-Eyrc, Col. O. E. Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.) Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)
Crowder, Capt. John E. Lucas, Major Sir J. Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.
Darling, Sir W. Y. Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. Thorp, Lt.-Col. R. A. F.
Davidson, Viscountess MacAndrew, Col. Sir C. Touche, G. C.
De la Bère, R. McCallum, Maj. D. Turton, R. H.
Digby, S. W. Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight) Vane, W. M. F.
Dodds-Parker, A. D. Mackeson, Brig. H. R. Walker-Smith, D.
Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W. Maclay, Hon. J. S. Wheatley, Colonel M. J.
Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness) Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries) White, J. B. (Canterbury)
Dray son, G. B. Maitland, Comdr. J. W. Williams, C. (Torquay)
Drewe, C. Manningham-Buller, R. E. Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)
Dugdale, Mai. Sir T. (Richmond) Marlowe, A. A. H.
Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L. Marsden, Capt. A. TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Foster, J. G. (Northwich) Marshall, D. (Bodmin) Major Conant and Major Ramsay.
Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M. Maude, J. C.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported Tomorrow.