HC Deb 10 October 1939 vol 352 cc266-9
Mr. Pethick-Lawrence

I beg to move, in page 2, line 11, after "shall," to insert: if the Secretary of State by order so determine. I hope we may discuss this Amendment and the second Amendment on the Paper standing in my name together, but in the second Amendment there is a small modification in the last line but one, where the words "Secretary of State" should be substituted for the word "Minister." The second Amendment would then read, in page 2, line 17, at the end, to insert: (2) Before any order is made under this Section, a draft thereof shall be laid before Parliament, and if each House resolves that the order, either with or without modification, be approved, the Secretary of State shall make the order in the terms of the draft so approved. After what has already happened on the English Bill, I can explain these Amendments in a very few words. The object of the first is to give the Minister himself and the Government the power to resuscitate only such part of the original Act of 1936 as they may desire. The object of the second Amendment is to give the House of Commons the power to survey the proposal of the Government and to alter it if they think fit. The object, therefore, of these Amendments is to enable either the Government or the House, in resuscitating the original Act, to change it by resuscitating only certain Sections if that seems the better way to the Government or to the House at that time. The Parliamentary Secretary refused our Amendment on the English Bill, and, therefore, I am afraid that I have very little hope that the Scottish Secretary, in spite of his enlightened views and of the importance attached to education in Scotland, will take a different view from that of his English colleague. If he refuses to meet us, however, I am afraid we shall have to take a Division on this first Amendment as we had to do on the proposed Amendment to the English Bill.

8.35 p.m.

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Colville)

I gratefully accept the tribute of enlightenment paid to me by the right hon. Gentleman, but I am sorry that I cannot meet his wishes. I must say, with the full responsibility which I have for education in Scotland, that I do not think it is the right way to attach to this Bill the provisions which the Amendment would seek to do. This Bill is to suspend the operation of the existing Act, and I think it should rest in that way. Whatever Government is in office after the war is over will have to consider the important question of education over a wide field. The action which we are taking would not preclude that from being done by whatever Government is in office then. Following the example of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, I will be brief; I contend that this Amendment is not the way to do it. I would have been willing, had the right hon. Member opposite agreed to move it, to accept an Amendment to secure discussion of this matter by ensuring that an Order should lie on the Table of the House, but I understand that that was not acceptable by the party opposite in reference to the English Bill.

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence

I will make one pendant remark to what the right hon. Gentleman has just said. The only record that will appear in the OFFICIAL REPORT of the alleged Amendment to which the right hon. Gentleman has just referred will be what I say in referring to it, and perhaps it would be for our benefit if it could be read out.

Mr. Colville

I will read it out, because it is well that it should be recorded in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The Amendment which I suggested might have been moved would have been, in Clause 1, page 2, line 17, at the end, to insert: (4) Before making an Order under Subsection (1) of this Section, the Secretary of State shall lay a draft thereof before Parliament, and if either House of Parliament, within the period of forty days beginning with the day on which any such draft is laid before it, resolves that the Order be not made, the Secretary of State shall not make the Order, but such a resolution shall not prejudice the making of any subsequent Order. In reckoning any such period of forty days as aforesaid no account shall be taken of any time during which Parliament is dissolved or prorogued, or during which both Houses are adjourned for more than four days.

8.38 p.m.

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence

It is well that that has been put on record, and I will only say in regard to it that we rejected it because it does not in any way meet our desire. It does not give to the House of Commons of that day an opportunity of discussing the issue whether exemptions shall or shall not form part of the Act. All that it would give to the House would be the right to pass or reject an Order made by the Government, and not only would it give that right to this House, but it would give it to another place also, and, therefore, from our point of view, the acceptance of such an Amendment would have put us in a worse position than that in which we find ourselves now. It would not have given us the power to do what we want to do, but it would have given another place the power to reject the resuscitation of the Act in any form.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 79; Noes, 91.

Division No. 303.] AYES. [8.22 p.m.
Adams, D. (Consett) Dobbie, W. Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)
Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford) Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) Henderson, T. (Tradeston)
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) Ede, J. C. Hills, A. (Pontotraot)
Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) Hopkin, D.
Attlea, Rt. Hon. C. R. Edwards, N. (Caerphilly) Jagger, J.
Barr, J. Frankel, D. Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)
Batey, J. Gallacher, W. Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)
Beaumont, H. (Batley) Gardner, B. W. Jackson, W. F.
Bevan, A. Grenfell, D. R. Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.
Buchanan, G. Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) Kirkwood, D.
Burke, W. A. Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) Lawson, J. J.
Collindridge, F. Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) Lee, F.
Daggar, G. Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) Leonard, W.
Dalton, H. Hall, W. G. (Colne Valley) Logan, D. G.
Lunn, W. Price, M. P. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
McEntee, V. La. T. Pritt, D. N. Tinker, J. J.
McGovern, J. Quibell, D. J. K. Tomlinton, G.
Mainwaring, W. H. Ridley, G. Viant, S. P.
Mander, G. le M. Riley, B. Walkden, A. G.
Marshall, F. Ritson, J. Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)
Milner, Major J. Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens) Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Montague, F. Sexton, T. M. Williams, T. (Don Valley)
Noel-Baker, P. J. Silverman, S. S. Wilmot, John
Oliver, G. H. Smith, E. (Stoke) Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Paling, W. Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly) Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Parker, J. Smith, T. (Normenton)
Pearson, A. Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W. Summerskill, Dr. Edith Mr. Mathers and Mr. Adamson.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. Gledhill, G. Radford, E. A.
Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead) Grimston, R. V. Raikes, H. V. A. M.
Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S. Hammersley, Captain S. S. Reed, A. C. (Exeter)
Aske, Sir R. W. Hannah, I. C. Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)
Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. Hannon, Sir P. J. H. Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)
Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Tnanet) Harbord, Sir A. Rosbotham, Sir T.
Boulton, W. W. Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- Rowlands, G.
Brabner, R. A. Hopworth, J. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.
Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buokrose) Holdsworth, H. Sanderson, Sir F. B.
Brass, Sir W. Horsbrugh, Florence Shakespeare, G. H.
Briscoe, Capt. R. G. Hunter, T. Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.
Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.) Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n) Snadden, W. McN.
Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Mentrose) Spens. w. P.
Butcher, H. W. Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R. Storey, S.
Campbell, Sir E. T. Lamb, Sir J. Q. Strickland, Captain W. F.
Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester) Leech, Sir J. W. Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Leighton, Major B. E. P. Sutcliffe, H.
Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) Lindsay, K. M. Thomas, J. P. L.
Colville, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd, G. W. Tufnell, Liout.-Commander R. L.
Craven-Ellis, W. Loftus, P. C. Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Crooke, Sir J. Smedley MoCorquodale, M. S. Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)
Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. McKie, J. H. Warrender, Sir V.
Davidson, Viscountess Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wayland, Sir W. A
Da vies, C. (Montgomery) Magnay, T. Wells, Sir Sydney
Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) Makins, Brigadior-General Sir Ernest Williams, C. (Torquay)
Donner, P. W. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)
Dugdale, Captain T. L. Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. Womersley, Sir W. J.
Eastwood, J. F. Medlicott, F. Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C.
Emery, J. F. Molson, A. H. E. Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
Entwistle, Sir C. F. Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R.
Erskine-Hill, A. G. Munro, P. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Fildes, Sir H. Palmer, G. E. H. Captain Waterhouse and Major
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J. Pym, L. R. Sir James Edmondson.
Division No. 304.] AYES. [8.39 p.m.
Adams, D. (Consett) Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) Price, M. P.
Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford) Henderson, T. (Tradeston) Pritt, D. N.
Adamson, W. M. Hills, A. (Pontefract) Quibell, D. J. K.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) Hopkin, D. Ridley, G.
Barr, J. Jackson, W. F. Riley, B.
Batey, J. J agger, J. Ritson, J.
Beaumont, H. (Batley) Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)
Bevan, A. Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. Sexton. T. M,
Buchanan, G. Kirkwood, D. Silverman, S. S.
Burke, W. A. Lawson, J. J. Smith, E. (Stoke)
Coilindridge, F. Lee, F. Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)
Daggar, G. Leonard, W. Smith, T. (Normanton)
Dalton, H. Logan, D. G. Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
Dobbie, W. Lunn, W. Summerskill, Dr. Edith
Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) McEntee, V. La T. Taylor, R. J. (Mcrpeth)
Ede, J. C. McGovern, J. Tinker, J. J.
Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) Mainwaring, W. H. Tomlinson, G.
Edwards, N. (Caerphilly) Mander, G. le M. Viant, S. P.
Frankel, D. Marshall, F. Walkden, A. G.
Gallacher, W. Milner, Major J. Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)
Gardner, B. W. Montague, F. Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Grenfell, D. R. Noel-Baker, P. J. Williams, T. (Don Valley)
Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) Oliver, G. H. Wilmot, John
Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) Paling, W. Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) Parker, J. Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) Pearson, A.
Hall, W. G. (Colne Valley) Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Mr. Mathers and Mr. Anderson.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Gol. G. J. Hammersley, Captain S. S. Radford, E. A.
Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead) Hannah, I. C. Raikes, H. V. A. M.
Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S. Hannon, Sir P. J. H. Reed, A. C. (Exeter)
Aske, Sir R. W. Harbord, Sir A. Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)
Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. Hepburn P. G. T. Buchan- Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)
Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) Hepworth, J. Rosbotham, Sir T.
Boulton, W. W. Holdsworth, H. Rowlands, G.
Brabner, R. A. Horsbrugh, Florence Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.
Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckrose) Hunter, T. Sanderson, Sir F. B.
Brass, Sir W. Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n) Shakespeare, G. H.
Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.) Kerr, Sir John Graham (Sco'sh Univs.) Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.
Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R. Snadden, W. McN.
Butcher, H. W. Lamb, Sir J. Q. Spens. W. P.
Campbell, Sir E. T. Leech, Sir J. W. Storey, S.
Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester) Leighton, Major B. E. P. Strickland, Captain W. F.
Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) Lindsay, K. M. Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Colville, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd, G. W. Sutcliffe, H.
Craven-Ellis, W. Lottus, P. C. Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Crooke, Sir J. Smedley McCorquodale, M. S. Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Ctookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. McKie, J. H. Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)
Davidson, Viscountess Magnay, T. Warrender, Sir V.
Davies, C. (Montgomery) Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest Waterhouse, Captain C.
Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Wayland, Sir W. A.
Donner, P. W. Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. Wells, Sir Sydney
Dugdale, Captain D. L. Medlicott, F. Williams, C. (Torquay)
Eastwood, J. F. Molson, A. H. E. Womersley, Sir W. J.
Emery, J. F. Moore, Lleut.-Col. Sir T. C. R. Wright, Wing-Commandar J. A. C.
Entwistle, Sir C. F. Morgan, R. H. (Worcester, Stourbridge) Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
Erskine-Hill, A. G. Munro, P.
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J. Palmer, G. E. H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Gledhill, G. Pym, L. R. Mr. Grimston and Major Sir
James Edmonds on.

Amendment made: In page 2, line 18, insert: before the commencment of this Act by an education authority."—[Mr. Colville.]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule agreed to.

Bill reported, with an Amendment; as amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed, with an Amendment.