§ 11.21 p.m.
§ Sir WILLIAM RAYI beg to move, in page 6, line 9, at the end, to insert:
(3) The provisions of this Act shall continue in force until the thirty-first day of December, nineteen hundred and forty-one, and no longer unless during the year ending on that date petroleum was being regularly gotten from not less than five wells or bore-holes which were, during the said year, being operated in exercise of rights granted by a licence granted under this Act, in which event the said provisions shall continue in force until other provision is made by Parliament.(4) In the event of the provisions of this Act Ceasing to have effect under subsection (3) of this section, the property in petroleum vested in His Majesty by section one of this Act shall by virtue of this Act revest upon the date of cesser in the persons in whom it was vested immediately prior to its being so vested under the said section or in their successors in title. Provided that except in respect of such revesting nothing in this or the immediately preceding sub-section of this section shall affect the previous 1709 operation of this Act or the validity of any licence granted thereunder or having effect as if granted thereunder which is in force at the date of such cesser or any obligation or liability previously incurred under this Act or under any such licence or the taking of any steps or the institution or carrying on of any proceeding to enforce any such obligation or liability.The Amendment has been put down in the hope that it will prevent what may be a derelict Act remaining on the Statute Book for all time and giving rise to endless controversy. The Amendment will not affect the provisions of the Bill at all. If the Measure is not a success, it can be removed from the deadweight of old laws which are still on the Statute Book. Unless there are five of these wells or bore-holes under license by the time suggested, I think that we can assume that there is nothing further to be done. We provide in the Amendment that it will not be included in the days to come in such Measures as the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill. It is really because of that reason that the Amendment has been put upon the Paper.
§ 11.23 p.m.
§ Mr. RUNCIMANThe proposal made in this Amendment would give the Act a life-time of five years. On has only to consider the nature of the business and property prescribed by the Bill to see how awkward it might be. As everyone knows who has had experience of oil, an oil-well sometimes flows unexpectedly, and still more unexpectedly ceases to flow. No one knows what will be the issue of petroleum or the situation of the oil industry in this country. It is certain that if it follows the example of oil produced in other parts of the world a five years' limit may be too short or too long. You can have it either way you like. If you make it seven as suggested, or if you make it any period, we ought to deprecate in the exploitation of oil any change of that kind being incorporated in the Act. I should like to point out that very little harm could come from the Act remaining on the Statute Book. Even if we had only a couple of borings, I do not see that there would be anything wrong in the Act remaining on the Statute Book. One of the objects of my hon. Friends with regard to the Amendment is to limit the operation of the Act. That is, quite naturally, their object from their point of view. On the contrary, we want to give every opportunity 1710 for its operation because we want it to work. We are anxious to attract into this business people who would not otherwise come into it if they were to be left in any doubt of the period during which they might be able to operate. Therefore, the acceptance of the Amendment would defeat the objects of the Bill, and in those circumstances we cannot accept it.
§ 11.26 p.m.
Marquess of HARTINGTONMy right hon. Friend is wrong in his arithmetic. The Amendment would continue the Act for seven years. If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that seven years is not long enough to give the Act a fair chance, we are quite willing to extend its working to 10 or 12 years, and if he thinks that five wells are too many, we would agree to four or three, but I think two wells would be too few. The object of the Amendment is to ensure that if the Act does not operate it shall cease to cumber the Statute Book, and the very dangerous and very formidable principle which it sets up shall cease to exist. I feel bound to press the Amendment because, far from helping us to exploit the search for oil, the Bill will definitely hinder it. I regard the chance of even having oil found in England as diminished by at least 50 per cent. by the passage of this Bill. It will add enormous confusion to the task of anyone who wants to look for oil. It means that any prospecting company that is going to operate will have to face the hostility of every landowner instead of their good will. They will have to fight every inch of the way instead of being welcomed. These are undoubted facts. It is the greatest blow that could be dealt at any possibility of getting oil in this country.
We do not know very much about the Bill, in spite of the questions we have put, we do not know the real need for it. We do not know what ground the Government have for believing that this expropriation is going to encourage the search for oil. We do know that it means dealing with a Government Department and with a hostile landowner instead of a friendly landowner who is anxious to draw his share of the proceeds of the oil. We do not know the real need for the Bill. We do not know why this expropriation is needed. We do not know what advice the Government 1711 have taken. But we do know that the Government intend that the negotiations should be conducted in dead secrecy and that they are not prepared to limit the royalty reserved to 10 per cent. of the value in the open market of the oil produced. I am willing to accept any modification of the Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman may see fit to suggest, 10 years instead of seven years, or a greater or less number of wells, or some regulation as to the flow of oil. The sole object of the Amendment is to ensure that if the Bill does not succeed it shall not go on indefinitely. If it is not a success we maintain that this dangerous and disastrous precedent should disappear from the Statute Book.
§ 11.31 p.m.
§ Mr. M. BEAUMONTI hope that a little more consideration will be given to the principle underlying the Amendment. I am not wedded to the actual terms. The right hon. Gentleman says that the Bill
§ is an experiment. We say that it is an experiment which is not likely to succeed. We may be right, more remarkable things than that have happened. If we are right then the right hon. Gentleman is wrong in saying that the Bill will do no harm if it is still on the Statute Book. We feel that the Bill will impede the search for oil, and if it is on the Statute Book after it has failed it will be extremely dangerous. There is nothing in the Amendment to prevent it going on if it is a success. The right hon. Gentleman claims that the Bill is necessary. In that case he can do no harm in accepting a limit of time for its operation if it is a failure, and if it is a failure then by accepting the Amendment he will give the country a chance of getting rid of a bad piece of legislation.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 17; Noes 151.
1713| Division No. 316.] | AYES. | [11.34 a.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Colfox, Major William Philip | Ray, Sir William | Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Craven-Ellis, William | Renter, John R. | wise, Alfred R. |
| Emmott, Charles E. G. C. | Rutherford, John (Edmonton) | |
| Fox, Sir Gifford | Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Greene, William P. C. | Shute, Colonel J. J. | Marquess of Hartington and Mr. |
| Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) | Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) | Michael Beaumont. |
| NOES. | ||
| Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. | Gardner, Benjamin Walter | Llewellin, Major John J. |
| Aske, Sir Robert William | George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Lloyd, Geoffrey |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Gluckstein, Louis Halle | Loftus, Pierce C. |
| Banfield, John William | Goodman, Colonel Albert W. | Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. |
| Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey | Gower, Sir Robert | Mabane, William |
| Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th, C.) | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick) |
| Boulton, W. W. | Graves, Marjorie | McCorquodale, M. S. |
| Bower, Commander Robert Tatton | Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur | MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. | Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) |
| Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) | Grimston, R. V. | McKeag, William |
| Broadbent, Colonel John | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Mainwaring, William Henry |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Hammersley, Samuel S | Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest |
| Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie | Hanbury, Cecil | Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M. |
| Burnett, John George | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. |
| Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) | Harris, Sir Percy | Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John |
| Carver, Major William H. | Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. H. (Prtsmth., S.) | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr) |
| Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties) |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller | Morrison, William Shephard |
| Crooke, J. Smedley | Holdsworth, Herbert | Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J. |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) | Hornby, Frank | Munro, Patrick |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Galnsb'ro) | Horsbrugh, Florence | Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. |
| Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard | Howard, Tom Forrest | O'Donovan, Dr. William James |
| Culverwell, Cyril Tom | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A. |
| Daggar, George | James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. | Palmer, Francis Noel |
| Dickie, John P. | Jamieson, Douglas | Pearson, William G. |
| Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.) | Janner, Barnett | Penny, Sir George |
| Edwards, Charles | Jenkins, Sir William | Peters, Dr. Sidney John |
| Elliston, Captain George Sampson | Joel, Dudley J. Barnato | Petherick, M. |
| Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Ker, J. Campbell | Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Blitton) |
| Entwistle, Cyril Fullard | Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) | Pickering, Ernest H. |
| Essenhigh, Reginald Clare | Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton | Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H. |
| Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.) | Lawson, John James | Procter, Major Henry Adam |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.) | Leckie, J. A. | Radford, E. A. |
| Fremantle, Sir Francis | Leech, Dr. J. W. | Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles) |
| Ramsbotham, Herwald | Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell) | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Ramsden, Sir Eugene | Shepperson, Sir Ernest W. | Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Rankin, Robert | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) | Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter) | Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-in-F.) | Warrender, Sir Victor A. G. |
| Rickards, George William | Smith, Tom (Normanton) | Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour |
| Robinson, John Roland | Somervell, Sir Donald | Whiteside, Borras Noel H. |
| Ropner, Colonel L. | Spencer, Captain Richard A. | Whyte, Jardine Bell |
| Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) | Spens, William Patrick | Williams, Edward John (Ogmore) |
| Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde) | Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley) |
| Runge, Norah Cecil | Stones, James | Wilmot, John |
| Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy) | Strickland, Captain W. F. | Womersley, Sir Walter |
| Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart | |
| Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l) | Sutcliffe, Harold | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Salmon, Sir Isldore | Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles | Major George Davies and Dr. |
| Salt, Edward W. | Thorp, Linton Theodore | Morris-Jones. |
| Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard | Tinker, John Joseph |
Resolution agreed to.