§
In Section ninety of the principal Act (which relates to decision of disputes) to Subsection (3) there shall be added the following words:
And benefit shall be paid up to the date that the decision of such referee is intimated to the person concerned, where such decision is adverse to his or her claim."—[Mr. Buchanan.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Mr. BUCHANANI beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
952 The point with which this Clause deals is a minor one. We fought the Minister rather closely in Committee, and it is now our intention only to raise one or two minor matters in regard to which we think the Bill could be improved. Our main reason for putting down this Clause is that recently a new set of circumstances has arisen affecting the number of persons coming under health insurance. Recently, as everyone is aware, the administration of health insurance has been tightened up. I am not going to discuss the reasons for that, but I know that a Circular was issued in 1930 which considerably tightened up the administration, and that has been followed, according to the statement of the Minister, by a further tightening of administration. A number of sick persons, or persons who have been certified as being sick, appear before a medical board and are examined. Two or three days subsequently they receive a notice to the effect that they are now fit for work and their sickness benefit must stop. They have no work to which to go, so they proceed to the Employment Exchange to sign on on the day that they receive the notice. They only receive sickness benefit from the day on which they are examined and they cannot go to the Employment Exchange because, if their sickness continue, and they signed on for the intervening days, it would be a complete negation of what they were claiming, and it would come very near to fraud.
They receive a notice three days afterwards and then they sign on at the Employment Exchange and they find that they are not entitled to sickness benefit, which stopped on the day the medical board examined them. Then they find that the Employment Exchange denies them benefit because they have not signed on the day previous to their sickness. In one or two cases it has deprived them not only of a day or two of benefit but of the week's waiting period, to which the sickness benefit automatically disentitles them. We are simply asking that the day on which the person receives the notice should be the day on which sickness benefit should stop. In another section of the 1924 Act the sickness can only count on the date when the notice is posted. That ought to operate the other way as well. It is not unfair to say that sickness benefit should continue until the actual sickness notice is 953 received. I do not think anyone can defend the principle of a person being disqualified for sickness benefit and at the same time being disqualified for unemployment benefit. We were able on the Unemployment Insurance Act, with the help of the present Under-Secretary, to get this principle accepted, that courts of referees should give a decision there and then if possible and, if not, the benefit should be continued until a decision was given. If the Minister cannot accept the Clause, can he not give us a definite guarantee that the decision of the board will be promulgated on the same day, while the applicant is there? I do not see any difficulty in that being done. They examine the person there and then and know whether he is fit or not, and the decision ought to be given at once. The delay of two or three days handicaps the applicant both for sickness and unemployment benefit.
§ Mr. MAXTONI beg to second the Motion.
§ Mr. TINKERI should like to support the Clause, because it touches on matters that I myself have noticed. Sometimes a decision is challenged and the regional doctor has to decide between the applicant and the medical man who certifies that he has recovered. The man is in doubt whether to sign on at the Employment Exchange or not, but the Employment Exchange will not receive his signature until he is definitely pronounced fit for work. The man is then in a difficulty. He cannot claim unemployment benefit, because he is claiming that he has not recovered. On the other hand, the insurance people say he has recovered and, therefore, he will be subjected to some examination. He has to lose the few intervening days at present. By not being able to sign on, he cannot claim there. If he has recovered, those days are missing. The same thing applies when a man is recovering under workmen's compensation. I am not sure whether the Minister will be able to deal with this matter to-day or not, but it certainly wants ventilating on the Floor of the House. Payment should be made either from the Unemployment Fund or from National Health Insurance. If the Minister can accept the Clause, it will go a long way to remove one of the greatest difficulties to which the men are subject.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Mr. Ernest Brown)The hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) put his case persuasively, as he always does, but I am sorry to say that the point he raises has nothing to do with the Clause he has drafted. They touch entirely different points. Section 90 applies only to the final appeal to the Minister. There is no question whatever that, if the Act were amended in the way the hon. Member wants, there would probably be some thousands of appeals annually, and they are not inexpensive. Every refusal of benefit, however justifiable, might well be made the subject of appeal. The House will be interested in the point and we shall make a note of it, but I think the hon. Member will see that his drafting does not meet the point that he wishes to meet, but raises an issue of very great gravity from the point of view of administration, and might have very expensive results. In those circumstances, I am sorry that the Government cannot see its way to accept the Clause.
§ Mr. BUCHANANIf the hon. Gentleman cannot accept the Clause in this form, could he not see, by regulation or instruction, that payment is made until the date of notification or that the person shall be notified on the day that he appears before the board?
§ Mr. BROWNThe hon. Member will not expect an answer now. We will take note of what he says. What he intends to do is an entirely different thing from what he proposes in this Clause. I cannot go any further to-day.
§ Mr. WALLHEADMight I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he views this point with favour? If he does, could he not provide for meeting it in another place? It is a point of some substance to a large number of people. It would not cost a very great amount as far as the scheme is concerned, and it means much to those who suffer.
Mr. PRICEI believe it is a fact that, where a case is ultimately referred to the Minister, many months pass before a decision is given. I think the acceptance of a Clause like this would make the Minister feel that a decision ought to be given more speedily. In some cases where the decision has been in favour of the applicant, he has had to wait six 955 months and has received no benefit. The idea of the Clause, as I take it, is that a more speedy decision should be given and that, pending the decision, the man or woman should not suffer but should receive benefit.
Sir H. YOUNGI rise lest hon. Members should think I am showing any discourtesy to their request. I rise for the sole purpose of reinforcing what has been
§ said by the Parliamentary Secretary. The point that is being put is wholly different from that advanced in the Clause. I do not think it is a wise thing to give an undertaking on a point which is not specifically raised by the Clause. I can only confirm what my hon. Friend has said, that the considerations that have been advanced will receive attention.
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 48; Noes, 299.
957| Division No. 249.] | AYES. | [4.58 p.m. |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) | Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) | Maxton, James |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Parkinson, John Allen |
| Batey, Joseph | Grundy, Thomas W. | Price, Gabriel |
| Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) | Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Briant, Frank | Hicks, Ernest George | Thorne, William James |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield) | Hirst, George Henry | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Buchanan, George | Jenkins, Sir William | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Cape, Thomas | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. David |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Cove, William G. | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Lawson, John James | Williams, Edward John (Ogmore) |
| Daggar, George | Leonard, William | Williams, Dr. John H. (Lianelly) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Logan, David Gilbert | Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley) |
| Duncan, Charles (Derby, Claycross) | Lunn, William | Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.) |
| Edwards, Charles | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | McEntee, Valentine L. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Mr. John and Mr. Groves. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric | Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E. |
| Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) | Chotzner, Alfred James | Elliston, Captain George Sampson |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. | Christie, James Archibald | Emmott, Charles E. G. C. |
| Albery, Irving James | Clarke, Frank | Emrys-Evans, P. V. |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (L'pool, W.) | Clarry, Reginald George | Essenhigh, Reginald Clare |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.) | Clayton, Dr. George C. | Everard, W. Lindsay |
| Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent) | Clydesdale, Marquess of | Falle, Sir Bertram G. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Fermoy, Lord |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Colville, John | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst |
| Apsley, Lord | Conant, R. J. E. | Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Cook, Thomas A. | Fox, Sir Gifford |
| Atkinson, Cyril | Cooke, Douglas | Fraser, Captain Ian |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Cooper, A. Duff | Fremantle, Sir Francis |
| Balniel, Lord | Copeland, Ida | Galbraith, James Francis Wallace |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Courthope, Colonel Sir George L. | Ganzoni, Sir John |
| Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar | Cowan, D. M. | Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton |
| Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell | Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry | Gillett, Sir George Masterman |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.) | Cranborne, Viscount. | Gilmour. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Beit, Sir Alfred L. | Craven-Ellis, William | Glyn, Major Ralph G. C. |
| Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Goff, Sir Park |
| Borodale, Viscount | Crooke, J. Smedley | Goodman, Colonel Albert W. |
| Bossom, A. C. | Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) |
| Boulton, W. W. | Croom-Johnson, R. P. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard | Graves, Marjorie |
| Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton | Culverwell, Cyril Tom | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. | Dalkeith, Earl of | Grimston, R. V. |
| Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Gunston, Captain D. W. |
| Briscoe, Capt. Richard George | Davison, Sir William Henry | Guy, J. C. Morrison |
| Broadbent, Colonel John | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Denville, Alfred | Hales, Harold K. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. | Hall, Capt. W. D'Arcy (Brecon) |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Dickie, John P. | Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Dixon, Rt. Hon. Herbert | Hammersley, Samuel S. |
| Burghley, Lord | Donner, P. W. | Hanley, Dennis A. |
| Burnett, John George | Doran, Edward | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Caporn, Arthur Cecil | Dower, Captain A. V. G. | Harris, Sir Percy |
| Carver, Major William H. | Drewe, Cedric | Hartington, Marquess of |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel | Hartland, George A. |
| Castle Stewart, Earl | Duggan, Hubert John | Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenn'gt'n) |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City) | Dunglass, Lord | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) |
| Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) | Eady, George H. | Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. |
| Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) | Eden, Robert Anthony | Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. (Birm., W) | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford) |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.) | Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham) |
| Hope, Capt. Arthur O. J. (Aston) | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart |
| Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge) | Milne, Charles | Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard |
| Hornby, Frank | Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k) | Scone, Lord |
| Horobin, Ian M. | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Selley, Harry R. |
| Horsbrugh, Florence | Mitcheson, G. G. | Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) | Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell) |
| Hume, Sir George Hopwood | Muirhead, Major A. J. | Shepperson, Sir Ernest W. |
| Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) | Munro, Patrick | Simmonds, Oliver Edwin |
| Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) | Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. | Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness) |
| Hurd, Sir Percy | Newton, Sir Douglas George C. | Skelton, Archibald Noel |
| Hurst, Sir Gerald B. | Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth) | Smith, R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H. | Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'id) | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.) | Normand, Wilfrid Guild | Smithers, Waldron |
| Jamieson, Douglas | North, Captain Edward T. | Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) |
| Jesson, Major Thomas E. | Ormiston, Thomas | Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. |
| Joel, Dudley J. Barnato | Pearson, William G. | Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. |
| Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan) | Peat, Charles U. | Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L. |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Penny, Sir George | Spencer, Captain Richard A. |
| Ker, J. Campbell | Percy, Lord Eustace | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland) |
| Kerr, Hamilton W. | Perkins, Walter R. D. | Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur |
| Kimball, Lawrence | Peters, Dr. Sidney John | Stevenson, James |
| Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R. | Petherick, M. | Stones, James |
| Knight Holford | Peto, Sir Basll E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Strauss, Edward A. |
| Knox, Sir Alfred | Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston) | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton | Pickering, Ernest H. | Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. George | Pickford, Hon. Mary Ada | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F. |
| Law, Sir Alfred | Potter, John | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart |
| Leckie, J. A. | Pownall, Sir Assheton | Summersby, Charles H. |
| Leech, Dr. J. W. | Procter, Major Henry Adam | Tate, Mavis Constance |
| Lees-Jones, John | Pybus, Percy John | Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) |
| Leigh, Sir John | Raikes, Henry V. A. M. | Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) |
| Lennox-Boyd, A. T. | Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian) | Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles |
| Levy, Thomas | Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Lewis, Oswald | Ramsden, E. | Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.) |
| Liddall, Walter S. | Rankin, Robert | Train, John |
| Lindsay, Noel Ker | Rathbone, Eleanor | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G. (Wd, G'n) | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Turton, Robert Hugh |
| Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.) | Rea, Walter Russell | Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon |
| Loder, Captain J. de Vere | Reid, David D. (County Down) | Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander | Reid, James S. C. (Stirling) | Wallace, John (Dunfermline) |
| Mabane, William | Rentoul Sir Gervals S. | Ward, Lt.-Col, Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick) | Renwick, Major Gustav A. | Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock) |
| MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) | Reynolds, Col. Sir James Philip | Warrender, Sir Victor A. G. |
| McKie, John Hamilton | Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U. | Watt, Captain George Steven H. |
| Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton | Roberts, Aied (Wrexham) | Weymouth, Viscount |
| McLean, Major Alan | Rosbotham, S. T. | Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) |
| Macmillan, Maurice Harold | Ross. Ronald D. | Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Magnay, Thomas | Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) | Wills, Wilfrid D. |
| Maitland, Adam | Rothschild, James A. de | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot | Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A. | Womersley, Walter James |
| Mander, Geoffrey le M. | Runge, Norah Cecil | Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff) |
| Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M. | Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy) | Worthington, Dr. John V. |
| Margesson, Capt. Henry David R. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Marsden, Commander Arthur | Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks) |
| Martin, Thomas B. | Rutherford, Sir John Hugo | |
| Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John | Salmon, Major Isidore | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Meller, Richard James | Salt, Edward W. | Lord Erskine and Mr. Harcourt |
| Johnstone. |