§ 7.0 p. m.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODI beg to move, in page 17, line 17, to leave out the words "within the administrative county of London."
The right hon. Gentleman has already met us by leaving to a free vote of the House the omission of these words in an earlier part of the Bill so that prerelease films may be shown anywhere in the country. This is an exactly similar case dealing with normal trade shows. I presume the right hon. Gentleman will allow the normal trade shows to be shown. It would save time if he intimated that he would accept it as consequential. [Interruption.] As it is, we shall certainly have to divide, as this is a matter of very great importance. There are two ways in which films can be registered. They can be shown at what 1212 are called prerelease shows, where you get big films like "Ben Hur," and certain other super-films are shown for the first time to the public and the trade. They are exhibited to the trade and to the public simultaneously at one theatre only. Owing to the pressure that has been brought to bear on the Government from other places outside London, we have enabled the Government to accept the idea that these pre-release shows may take place anywhere. [Interruption.] It is hardly worth while addressing hon. Members opposite. On matters of this sort it is a case of idée fixe. Exhibition anywhere else is not an exhibition. Manchester does not matter. The ordinary trade show must be held in London. Why? Because of one advantage.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe right hon. and gallant Gentleman should realise that I am the person whom lie should try to convert.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODWhat we urge from these benches is that the normal trade show should take place not only in London, but also anywhere where it is more convenient to the trade—Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester or in any other big centre. If you have a trade show in London only, how are the people from Caithness ever to see a trade show? They certainly will not go to the expense of coming to London. They will be compelled, unless this Amendment be accepted, to blind book; they will be compelled to rent these films without having a chance of seeing them. They will have to do it, in fact, upon the report published in the trade newspaper of what the reviewer of that paper thought of the film. I prefer that you should give the greatest possible latitude to the trade. The right hon. Gentleman's heart is with me, but, unfortunately, he has already seen the trade about this. The Cinema Exhibitors' Trade Union say, "No, you cannot have trade shows elsewhere than in London, because our headquarters are in London. How can we go outside? "Of course, a trade show in London is an opportunity for serving out free passes to a lot of one's friends to go and see a film and then report to the picture houses in Manchester or elsewhere. There can be no possible reason why the Government 1213 should refuse to producers of films or the. renters of films the right to show their goods wherever they like within the union of Great Britain. If this Bill included Ulster, do you imagine the people would allow the prohibition of any trade show in Ulster? It is because Ulster would not stand that sort of thing that you have left Northern Ireland out of the Bill. Why should Scotland be compelled to have a Bill like this? Of course, it is for the benefit of owners of expensive West End theatres. It forces every producer to have a trade show in an expensive London theatre, shoves up the price in consequence, and the cost all comes back on to the consumer, who is the person who goes to see the picture. It is the case in regard to everything else. Apparently, it is the ultimate, aim and object of His Majesty's Government. on any question that comes before them, that if you only add to the price of the goods you are bound to have universal prosperity. If the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade spent, his time trying to make production easier and cheaper in this country instead of making it more expensive, his efforts would do more good in the country.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThe right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) has addressed a very imaginative speech to the House, but it is not in very near relation to the truth. It has nothing to do with pre-release. It is quite a different case. Pre-release is an exceptional case where one special film is put on show. It may be in London or somewhere else. The object of the Bill is to make quite sure that a trade show of a film shall take place where it can be available to exhibitors. As a matter of fact—and I speak with some knowledge—the present practice has been that a trade show shall take place in London. The desire of the exhibitors—and I do not put it too high—is that this position should be maintained, and that there should be a trade show of a film in a place where the great mass of people or their agents could see it. That was the unanimous view expressed to me by the exhibitors who are, after all, much more concerned for the trade than the right hon. and gallant Gentleman with his professions of Free Trade or anything else. There was the keenest possible 1214 desire that trade shows shall be in London. There is nothing to stop people having trade shows in other places if they so wish. If you strike out these words it will mean that the renter will be able to have his trade show in any place he likes, and in a place to which people cannot go. [Interruption.] I will tell you what he would do if he were, free from this obligation. When the renter knew that he had a superior film and would get a good market for it, he would have a trade show where everyone could get to it, but if it was inferior stuff he would have a trade show where exhibitors could not see it, and we should get back to something very near to blind booking again. I say that in a matter of this kind the trade is the best judge, and it is the unanimous desire of the trade that they should have this provision. I ask the House to prefer the trade view of this and to, deal with it accordingly rather than deal with it in the way the right hon. and gallant Gentleman suggested.
Mr. BECKETTThe right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade has raised the question as to what the trade wants. I think the House ought to have the facts about that. The right hon. Gentleman has consulted a committee. It is perfectly true that this committee has urged the right hon. Gentleman to retain the lines he had already practically promised to delete. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman himself does not know why they wanted this. He will know if he reads the minutes of the general committee of the Cinematograph Exhibitors' Association, which was held yesterday, when they decided to become a renting agency in order to render the whole of the Bill null and vaid. Of course, this committee, with which the right hon. Gentleman is in touch, wants him to say by law there shall not be a trade show anywhere than in London. They are laughing at him. They are using his Bill, not for his purpose, but for purposes of their own. They are setting up a renting agency from their own organisation. They want him to protect that agency, and give it the advantage of keeping shows in London. They will purchase their American films and films from anywhere else because they will be renters. They will let them through their renting 1215 agency, and the only thing they will get out of the Bill is the privilege that the trade shows shall be in London. There are not Members of this House who, if they had goods to sell, would not put them in a place where most of their clients could see them. A candidate does not go to a Parliamentary election and deliver a speech 100 miles from his constituency in order to get in. He goes into his constituency—at least those who dare do so. If a man has got a film to sell, of course he brings it into the proper place. If he were to do as the President of the Board of Trade suggests and exhibit it in some back yard or cellar, the law would not allow it.
Surely the trade is the best judge as to whether a film in those circumstances might be good or bad. This Amendment is being passed in the interests of a group of renters who are going to be also renters and exhibitors. You will see that directly you get your Bill through, the exhibitors will become renters, and you will not be able to get a postage stamp between them. You will realise the truth that you cannot interfere with an industry run by private enterprise and hamper it by private legislation of this nature. I think that, if the right hon. Gentleman will read the minutes of this committees, of which he boasts so much, at their meeting yesterday—if he has any imagination or any energy left after his efforts in this House—I think he will say, "Well, I thought I was "doing" the cinema exhibitors, while, as a matter of fact, they have made me look just about as foolish as any Committee has ever made me look."
§ Colonel DAYI was rather amused to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that it was the trade that wanted this Clause and that the trade were the best judges. It is rather surprising to see that the right hon. Gentleman, just towards the end of the Bill, wishes to quote the trade in this way. On several occasions during
§ the Debates figures have been given to him recording the decisions of the trade, and no notice has been taken of them. [Interruption.] There is the hon. Gentleman the Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams), who has gone to the back benches, shaking his head. He was probably in the House when I read out a copy of the referendum that was sent by the trade.
§ Mr. H. WILLIAMSI was simply appealing to you not to read it again.
§ Colonel DAYSome hon. Members are not so attentive as you are. The figures were 679 against and 609 for. If the right hon. Gentleman is so concerned as to what the trade wants, there is a most important resolution—a referendum. Why does he not take notice of that? If the trade are the best judges, why not allow the trade to decide for themselves? If the exhibitors or the renters desire to hold a trade show in Cardiff for the West country, or if they desire to hold a trade show in Glasgow for Scotland, why not allow them to hold that trade show? Why insist upon the exhibitors or the renters holding their trade show in the administrative county of London? I sincerely hope that the House will take the view that in the show business lately—not so much in the cinema industry; but it will come—trade shows or first performances are given in the provinces. I desire to support the Amendment because I think it is most important that those people who are running the cinema industry, either as renters or exhibitors, should be allowed to run their trade shows in exactly that part of the country they desire without any undue influence being brought to bear upon them by the President of the Board of Trade through this Bill to bring their trade shows to London.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 252; Noes, 128.
1217| Division No. 347.] | AYES. | [7.15 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Berry, Sir George |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Balniel, Lord | Bethel, A. |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Barclay-Harvey, C.M. | Betterton Henry B. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Birchall, Major .J. Dearman |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Barnett, Major Sir Harry | Blades, Sir George Rowland |
| Ashley, Lt: Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W | Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Boothby, R. J. G. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Bourne, Captain Robert Croft |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. | Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Bennett, A. J. | Braithwaite, Major A. N. |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Pennefather, Sir John |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hall, Capt. W. D. A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Penny, Frederick George |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hammersley, S. S. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Perring, Sir William George |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Harland, A. | Philipson, Mabel |
| Buchan, John | Harrison, G. J. C | Pitcher, G. |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Hartington, Marquess of | Pilditch, Sir Philip |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Burman, J. B. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Burney, Lieut: Com. Charles D. | Haslam, Henry C. | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Hawke, John Anthony | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Headlam, Lieut: Colonel C. M. | Remer, J. R. |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Remnant, Sir James |
| Campbell, E. T. | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Cassels, J. D. | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Ropner, Major L. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Hills, Major John Waller | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Hilton, Cecil | Rye, F. G. |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S.J. G. | Salmon, Major I. |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Christie, J. A. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Sandon, Lord |
| Cobb, Sir Cyrill | Hume, Sir G. H. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Huntingfield, Lord | Savery, S. S. |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. McI. (Renfrew, W.) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Jephcott, A. R. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Cope, Major William | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Couper, J. B. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Skelton, A. N. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Lamb, J. Q. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Little, Dr. E. Graham | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Loder, J. de V. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Dixey, A. C. | Looker, Herbert William | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Drewe, C. | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Lumley, L. R. | Strauss, E. A. |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Ellis, R. G. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | MacIntyre, Ian | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | McLean, Major A. | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Fanshawe, Captain G. D | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Thom, Lt. -Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Fermoy, Lord | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Fielden, E. B. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Finburgh, S. | Malone, Major P. B. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Merriman, F. B. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Meyer, Sir Frank | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Ganzonl, Sir John | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Wells, S. R. |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple |
| Gates, Percy | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Goff, Sir Park | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Gower, Sir Robert | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Grace, John | Nelson, Sir Frank | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Withers, John James |
| Grant, Sir J. A. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Womersley, W. J. |
| Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'd.) | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Nuttall, Ellis | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Oakley, T. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Oman, Sir Charles Willlam C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Margesson. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Beckett, John (Gateshead) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Baker, Walter | Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Bromley, J. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Barnes, A. | Brown, Ernest (Leith) |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Buchanan, G. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Sllvertown) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Cape, Thomas | Kelly, W. T. | Smillle, Robert |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kennedy, T. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kirkwood. D | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Kelghley) |
| Connolly, M. | Lansbury, George | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Cove, W. G. | Lawrence, Susan | Snell, Harry |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lawson, John James | Snowden, At. Hon. Philip |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Lee, F. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Lindley, F. W. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Dennison, R. | Livingstone, A. M. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Duncan, C. | Lowth, T. | Sullivan, J. |
| Dunnico, H. | Lunn, William | Sutton, J. E. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Gardner, J. P. | Mackinder, W. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Gibbins, Joseph | MacLaren, Andrew | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Gillett, George M. | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Townend, A. E. |
| Gosling, Harry | March, S. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Maxton, James | Viant, S. P. |
| Greenall, T. | Mitchell, E. Rosalyn (Paisley) | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine) | Morris, R. H. | Walsh, Rt. Hon Stephen |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Murnin, H. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Groves, T. | Naylor, T. E. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Grundy, T. W. | Oliver, George Harold | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Owen, Major G. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Palin, John Henry | Welsh, J. C. |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Paling, W. | Westwood, J. |
| Hardie, George D. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Whiteley, W. |
| Harris, Percy A. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Hayday, Arthur | Potts, John S. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Henderson, Right Hon A. (Burnley) | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Riley, Ben | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Hirst, G. H. | Ritson, J. | Windsor, Walter |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | Wright, W. |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Robinson, W.C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland) | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Scurr, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Sexton, James | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Hayes |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. McI. (Renfrew, W.) | |
| John, William (Rhondda, West) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
§ Amendment made:
§ In page 18, line 24, leave out the words "the calendar," and insert instead thereof the words "any such."—[Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister.]