Mr. J. RAMSAY MacDONALDWill the -right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister inform us what business he proposes to take next week?
§ The PRIME MINISTEROn Monday and Tuesday, the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Bill, Second Reading, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
§ Wednesday: Criminal Justice [Money]. Committee; Teachers (Superannuation) [Money], Committee; Poor Law Emergency Continuance (Scotland) Bill, Report and Third Reading; Public Health (Scotland) Amendment Bill, Report and Third Reading; Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pension's [Money]. Report; and, if time permit, other Orders on the Paper.
§ At 8.15 p.m. there will he Private Members' Motions.
§ Thursday: Supply, Committee—Ministry of Transport Vote.
§ The discussion on ex-ranker officers' pensions, which was to take place on Monday, 18th May, is postponed until Wednesday, 27th May. I understand that this arrangement is agreeable to hon. Members.
Mr. MacDONALDWhen is it proposed to take the Money Resolution of the Widows', Orphans' and Old Ago Contributory Pensions Bill?
§ The PRIME MINISTERI think that that should be a matter of arrangement, i) possible. My own view is that it might be practicable to get a Division an the Second Reading, say, about. a quarter-past eight o'clock, and to devote the rest of the evening to the Money Resolution. Perhaps steps will be taken to make an arrangement through the usual channel.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYIs intended to take all stages of the Pensions Bill on the Floor of the House, or will it go upstairs to a Standing Committee? It would be rather convenient to know.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI am sorry that I cannot make a statement on that subject yet. A statement must be made after the Second Reading.
Mr. MacDONALDI would be glad, Mr. Speaker, if you would be good enough to guide the House regarding the Private Business set down for to-night, and perhaps give us a ruling. There are two Bills down for Report. stage and Third Reading. There is a Motion that is about to lie put, exempting the second Bill from the operation of Standing Order No. 8. What I ask is this: When these two Bills were before the House for Second Reading, there was an agreement by which both of 'them would be discussed together, so far as Debate was concerned, and then that any Division which took place at the end of the Debate should he held to apply to both Bills. Under that arrangement, am I right in assuming that you held that when the Question regarding the second Bill was put, that Bill was unopposed, and that, therefore, it was not subject to the exemption provided for under Standing Order No. 8? Supposing the same arrangement is carried out to-day regarding the Report stage and the Third Reading of the same two Bills—if hon. Members will look at the Order Paper they will find that, so far as the notices of Amendment are concerned, that operation is to continue—would you again rule that, both as regards the Report stage and Third Reading of the second Bill, it would be regarded as Unopposed Business, and, therefore, not be subject to Standing Order No. 8, which means that you could take it if it was reached after 9.30?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI think that the case to-day is not exactly like that to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred —although it is in the main—because IT is necessary to dispose of two stages of each of these [Electricity Supply] Bills, whereas there was only one stage on the last occasion. To he quite sure of that, it is necessary to have a Motion of this kind, dealing with what is known as the 9.30 Rule, Standing Order No. 8
With regard to the procedure tonight, I understand from the hon. Members who are concerned in opposing these Bills that it is the case that the points on the two Bills are practically the same, and that they would be content with raising them on the first Bill, without repeating them on the second Bill. With regard to the Amendments standing on the Paper, I 2039 am informed that the first new Clause is accepted by the promoters in both cases. That leaves two main questions—two Amendments—which I should be disposed to select from those on the Paper. The first is that dealing with the question of the terms of transfer to the joint authority, and the second is that dealing with the maximum rate of dividend. My suggestion is that we might dispose of the first about 9.30 p.m. and of the other at about 11 o'clock. Then there might be. a Division on the Third Reading, which would have taken us beyond 11 o'clock. and would necessitate the proposed extension of time.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Proceedings on any Private Business set down for consideration at a. quarter-past Eight of the Clock this evening by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means be exempted from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 8, may be taken after half-past Nine of the Clock."[The Prime Minister.]
Captain BENNI wish to ask the Prime Minister, in reference to this very interesting Motion, whether he has any precedent for it There may well be a precedent, but I can recollect none for suspending the Standing Order for the purpose of pushing through a Private Bill. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether this procedure is unprecedented or whether it has happened on other occasions? I would like to say on this Motion that it seems to me very undesirable that business should be so compressed as to deprive many hon. Members of an opportunity of having a full day to discuss the unemployment question and finding other opportunities—
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe matter cannot be debated. It is the duty of the Chairman of Ways and Means, under Standing Orders, to set down Bills.
Captain BENNI am trying to observe strictly the narrow limits which must govern any discussion on this Motion. If the Prime Minister would answer the question as to whether there is a precedent for the Motion, I would be glad. I would point out that the arrangements in reference to private business under Standing Order No. 8 are such that the business has to be arranged without taking up unduly the opportunity that Members have of discussing public business. That is laid down in Standing Order No. 8. It seems to me that this is a proper occasion for some protest to be made in the interest of the freedom of Debate as against the mere convenience of the Government in their business.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI think that my hon. and gallant Friend will find the precedent that he desires in 1908, without going any further back. With regard to the Debate on unemployment, I. too, regret the shortness of the time. Of course, it is open to hon. Members to put down the same Vote again, and I hope very much that that may be done.
§
Question put,
That the Proceedings on any Private Business set down for consideration at a quarter-past Eight of the Clock this evening by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means be exempted from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 8, may he taken after half-past Nine of the Clock.
§ The House divided: Ayes. 218: Noes, 123
2041| DivisionNo.102.] | AYES. | [3.58p.m |
| Acland Troyte,Lieut.-Colonel | Boothby, R. J. G. | Christie, J. A. |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer |
| Albery, Irving James | Bowyer, Capt. G.E.W | Clarry, Reginald George |
| Alexander, SirWm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Brass, Captain W | Cochrane, Commander Hon. AD |
| Applin, Colonel R.V.K | Briggs, J. Harold | Cockerill, Brigadier-General G.K. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Willfrid W | Briscoe, Richard George | Cohen, Major J. Brunei |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F.W | Brittain, Sir Harry | Cope. Major William |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Brocklebank, C.E.R | Couper, J.B |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Brooke, Brigadier-General C.R.1 | Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry |
| Balniel, Lord | Brown, Maj. D.C.(N'th'I'd., Hexham) | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Brown, Brlg.-Gen.H.C.(Berks.Newb'y) | Crookshank, Cpt. C. de W. (Berwick) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C.M | Bullock, Captain M | Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) |
| Barnett, Major Richard W | Burman, J. B. | Curzon, Captain Viscount |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Burton, Colonel H. W | Davidson,J.(Hertl'd,Hemel Hempst'd) |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon w | Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset. Yeovll) |
| Bentinck. Lord Henry Cavendish- | Campbell, E. T. | Dixey, A. C. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Cazalet. Captain Victor A. | Doyle, Sir N. Grattan |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Drewe. C. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood) | Eden, Captain Anthony |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Remnant, Sir James |
| Elliot, Captain Walter E. | Kidd, J. (Llnllthgow) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Ellis, R. G. | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hertford) |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Montlth | Kinloch Cooke, Sir Clement | Ropner, Major L. |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Knox, Sir Alfred | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Lamb, J. Q. | Salmon, Major I. |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R. | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Lister, Cunllffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Savery, S. S. |
| Fanshawe, Commander G. D. | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green, | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W) |
| Fermoy, Lord | Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) | Skelton, A. N. |
| Flelden, E. B. | Loder, J. de V. | Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Fleming, D. P. | Looker, Herbert William | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Ford, P. J. | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Lumley, L. R. | Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.) |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Lynn, Sir Robert J. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | MacAndrew, Charles Glen | Stott, Lieut. Colonel W. H. |
| Gates, Percy | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Strickland, Sir Gerald |
| Gee, Captain R. | Macdonald, R.(Glasgow, Cathcart) | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Macmillan, Captain H. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Glyn, Major R. G. C. | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. |
| Grace, John | Macquisten, F. A. | Tasker, Major R. Inigo |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Maltland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Grotrlan, H. Brent | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Thomson, Sir W.Mitchell-(Croydon,S.) |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Tryon, Rt. Hon George Clement |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Vaughan Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Hanbury, C. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Waddlngton, R. |
| Hartlngton, Marquess of | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Klngston-on Hul) |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Murchison, C. K. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Nelson, Sir Frank | watts, Dr. T. |
| Heneage. Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Neville, R. J. | wells, S. R. |
| Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Wheler, Major Granville C. H. |
| Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple |
| Hilton, Cecil | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Holland, Sir Arthur | Nuttall, Ellis | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Homan, C. W. J. | Oakley, T. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Windsor Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Howard, Captain Hon. Donald | Pennefather, Sir John | Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W.R., Ripon) |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Wood, E. (Chest'r. Stalyb'dge &Hyde). |
| Hudson. R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whitch'n) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). |
| Huntingfield, Lord | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) |
| Hurd, Percy A. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton | Wragg, Herbert |
| Jackson. Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. | Preston, William | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Price, Major C. W. M. | Young, E. Hilton (Norwich) |
| Jacob, A. E. | Radford, E. A. | |
| James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Raine, W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Jephcott, A. R. | Ramsden, E. | Colonel Gibbs and Major Sir Harry |
| Joynson Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William | Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) | Barnston. |
| NOES | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd | Kelly, W. T. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Gibbins, Joseph | Kennedy, T. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Gosling, Harry | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Kirkwood, D. |
| Barker. G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Lansbury, George |
| Barr, J. | Greenall, T. | Lawson, John James |
| Batey, Joseph | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Lee, F. |
| Beckett. John (Gateshead) | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Livingstone, A. M. |
| Benn, Captin Wedgwood (Leith) | Groves, T. | Lowth, T. |
| Briant, Frank | Grundy, T. W. | Lunn, William |
| Broad, F. A. | Hall. G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Mackinder, W. |
| Buchanan, G. | Hardle, George D. | MacLaren, Andrew |
| Charleton, H. C. | Harney, E. A. | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Harris, Percy A. | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | March, S. |
| Comton, Joseph | Hayes, John Henry | Maxton, James |
| Connolly, M. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Montague, Frederick |
| Cove, W. G. | Hirst, G. H. | Morris, R. H. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Hore-Bellsha, Leslie | Murnin, H. |
| Duncan, C. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Palin, John Henry |
| Dunnico, H. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Paling. W. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Ponsonby, Arthur |
| Fenby, T. D. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Potts, John S. |
| Forrest, W. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Richardson, R.(Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Riley, Ben | Snell, Harry | Wedgwood, Rt.Hon. Joslah |
| Ritson, J. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Westwood, J. |
| Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) | Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Robinson, W. C. (Yorks,W.R.,Elland) | Stamford, T. W. | Whiteley, W. |
| Salter, Dr. Alfred | Stephen, Campbell | Wignall, James |
| Scrymgeour, E. | Sutton, J. E. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Scurr, John | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H.(Derby) | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Sexton, James | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) | Williams, Dr. J. H.(Llanelly) |
| Shiels, Dr. Drummond | Thurtle, E. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Tinker, John Joseph | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Sltch, Charles H. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. | Wilson, R. J.(Jarrow) |
| Slesser, Sir Henry H. | Viant, S. P. | Wright, W. |
| Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) | Wallhead, Richard C. | |
| Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) | Watson, W. M (Dunfermilne) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Smith, Rennle (Penlstone) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) | Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. |
| Warne. |